i look for special plane

[athlon]

hi to everyone, they asked me in friendship to look for a plane with good characteristics to convert it to electric

the performance to be overcome are those ofhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/yuneec_international_e430http://yuneeccouk.site.securepod.com/aircraft_specification.htmlthe budget available is around 200000 euros (aircraft + conversion)

In practice I am looking for a large enough glider or a very efficient plane to reach a range of 350 km (on the e430 you can at the cost of sacrificing the passenger and embarking on additional batteries)

do you have any suggestions on some very successful plane that in your opinion can give good results once converted?

 

[Er Presidente]

lion t7, it would be nice, but I don't think it has the performance of a motorcycle.

 

[athlon]

I forgot to say, it needs a closed cabin and a good cruise speed (minimum 100 km/h) - no need to be an ultralight can be a real plane.

the typical use will fly with pilot + manager on the bolzano-sondrio route and vice versa

 

[Er Presidente]

The base can only be a glider, a wing efficiency of 1:24 is not reached by a traditional plane.

 

[marcofor]

hi to everyone, they asked me in friendship to look for a plane with good characteristics to convert it to electric

The project is like this http://www.skyspark.eu/web/ita/index.php ?

I met the owner of one of the companies involved, and they had gotten a plane from an airplaneclub to reconvert it.

 

[Tequila]

the base is that suggested by the president, however try to see also the silent alien that already provide a version with electric motor, obviously not to travel distances like those with the use of the only motor.
you could also see pipistrel motorists, including taurus that has efficiency 1:40, then there are also sinus and viruses.. .

 

[athlon]

the gliders are definitely a great starting point, but what I fear is that they are too delicate for everyday use full load ( 2 people and some luggage) and that they are too sensitive if by chance you meet strong wind at altitude (the typical route involves the passage of the tonal at almost 2000 altitude.


Another thing that is not admissible is the single-wheeled landing cart, I think the classic tricycle, better if retractable is an almost obligatory choice

I believe that it is indifferent to having them in tandem or flanked side by side, instinctively I would say that in tandem they are more aerodynamic, but I see very dantissimi planes with places flanked so I deduce that it is not a critical thing

 

[Er Presidente]

from what you write to me it seems to me that you do not want to build an experimental prototype to use for occasional flights, but that you want a plane to use every day as an airplane.
I think it would be appropriate to change the target and try the hybrid road.
A classic plane is difficult to have sufficient performance and autonomy at the same time.
a hybrid, if well conceived, could use electric traction only when possible and have less batteries on board increasing the useful load.

 

[athlon]

Unfortunately the final user is someone who deals with renewable energies on a large scale and therefore the "full electric" is a must.

and always unfortunately when there is something electric at the limit of possible in Italy always ends that they pull from me to solve the problems (and unfortunately always "in friendship" ... are too good )

 

[Er Presidente]

I don't think it can be solved "in friendship", unless you use a hybrid solution (be careful that even the solution with an fc is a hybrid), you can't have the power and autonomy you need.
we talk about accumulations of the order of 20 kwh, to adage to "center to hour" and for three hours more ' takeoff and any accidents on the road (thermal, winds contrary etc.) you can only think of a glider with a small contribution of power to propeller.

 

[athlon]

As a build-up I have made a few calculations and a battery of at least 40 kwh should be enough, but it is a battery that weighs almost 250 kg, at the moment everything would work on e430 at the price of sacrificing the passenger seat and add 100 kg to the original battery

in practice with a modified e430 doi 30 ... to make 31 I have to find the way to bring around these 75 extra kg of manager equipped with ipad :d :d

(on the e430 give an approximate range of 180 km with a battery of 13 kwh and a cruise speed of 90 km/h)

 

[Er Presidente]

As a build-up I have made a few calculations and a battery of at least 40 kwh should be enough, but it is a battery that weighs almost 250 kg, at the moment everything would work on e430 at the price of sacrificing the passenger seat and add 100 kg to the original battery

in practice with a modified e430 doi 30 ... to make 31 I have to find the way to bring around these 75 extra kg of manager equipped with ipad :d :d

(on the e430 give an approximate range of 180 km with a battery of 13 kwh and a cruise speed of 90 km/h)

You can't even drive it.
you have to be careful about the conditions of the statement, an account and make a single test, an account and do it every day as a normal job.
Unfortunately, there is a lot of confusion and, above all, continues to increase.

 

[athlon]

the distance to be traveled is Bolzano - sondrio, on the road are 175 km, making the valley of the tonale , surely in line of air is less, however, since you have to take account of winds, descends , etc etc. etc. etc. I would say that to fly safely on that route the minimum range should be around 300 km

I think that in the end the thing that could be approached more would be a slightly "enlarged" and lightened version of the e430 with increased wing surface to carry around the additional weight of the additional batteries, though there was something already ready would be better

 

[athlon]

In addition there are to be considered the altimetric differences , sondrio 307 m. slm bolzano 262 m asl, pitch at least 2000 m. slm

 

[Tequila]

If you have to do that road with only electric motor that works continuously as a blast I see it hard. the gliders however are not afraid of wind gusts, they are made especially to fly in heat and above the mountains.
your main problem however is to find/build a powerful electric motor to allow you to take off and fly with an airplane or ultralight taking into account that you should have a maximum weight to take off (in case of ultralight) of 450 kg and this means 2 people + luggage + aircraft_motor_battery= 450kg

on the classic ulm the maximum weight of 450kg is considered with a 20lt of fuel approximately, in fact many are out of this reach.
some solutions that I have seen (prototypes), some builders have tiled so to say the entire extradox of the wings of solar cells to recharge the batteries, but we are still very far from values comparable to the classic thruster to burst.

the e430 of which you take example has a battery pack of 83kg, (average weight of a passenger) for 26kwh overall. the maximum power 40kw/54 cv at a presumed speed of 150kmh should have a gross autonomy of 40 min. to recharge the batteries takes 4 hours with the availability of a socket of 6.5kw. on cruise for an estimated speed of 95kmh should have 2 hours of autonomy, so your 300 km you make them in 2 rounds...

with a classic rotax 912 from 100cv with a reservoir of 70 lt (55 kg) on a ulm that has crucible speed of 180-190kmh and a consumption (with variable pitch propeller) on 15-17 lt/h you are above 800-900km, some ulm also make almost 1200 km of autonomy and with speed of cross above 200kmh.
you also have that as you travel the fuel you consume and the weight decreases so you exploit less the engine to stay in the air while the batteries always have a fixed weight.

for this reason currently the solutions with electric motor are directed on gliders with retractable fin and monopal whose main purpose is to bring it to altitude and then to sail.

What you have to do is a great challenge to face. :finger:

 

[athlon]

:biggrin: that's a good challenge, it's not safe, otherwise they didn't call me... The last time they asked for me the request was something like that, "I know one who wants to go to dakar with an electric car, it's not like you can see if it's possible... he wants to leave in four weeks."
:biggrin:


The engine detail does not concern me with an electric motor of 60 kw peak (2 min) and 35 continuous weighs about 11 kg and are easily fitted, let's say that with 22 kg of motor I can pull on a two-seater without too much problems.


for the weight there is no problem all the pilots who would possibly bring the car are enabled also to the multimotor reaction (ex line pilots or former military including many aliantists ) so if the correct weight of the car is 500 or 600 kg there is no problem to make it homologated as an airplane, indeed it would be better as management to have a fleet of only aircraft that not a mixed plane and ulm


for charging there is no problem both for issues of "logistics" (the management meetings always take at least half a day) and for the presence of 2 fast charging stations from 30kw already 'included' in the package that will be placed in the starting and arrival airports.

about 300 km of range I need in the process unique because this is the safety margin I want to keep to cover the distance from sondrio to Bolzano (in theory about 170 km).


I also calculated the extra energy you need to consider to bring an aircraft of 600 kg from the altitude of 200 m slm up to 2000 m slm that is almost 3 kwh ... means to have in the batteries at least 6 kwh considering the various inefficiencies in play


summing up:

departure aircraft
♪
cost : 89,000 $
range with one person and 13kwh (83 kg) about 180 km (2h @ 90 km/h)
estimated range at full load (450 kg) about 120km

very rough and prudent efficiency 10 km for each kwh on board

residual budget for changes
about 100000 euros

including:
increase wing surface
variable step propeller???? Could it serve? )
better batteries (although I have seen that like wh/kg are already almost as good as my best suppliers, at most I think I can row a 3-4%)

to reach 300 km more' svalico admitting that the increased wing and other changes manage to maintain the efficiency of the modified plane equal to that of the original would serve in theory 36 kwh with the plane that would weigh full load (450 aircraft orig +146 batt agg + 30 modifications) 626 kg

in my opinion you can do:biggrin:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rdkecmot1ko:biggrin:

 

[athlon]

In the meantime, I am continuing to graze on the net in search of possible motorists to convert, for example, although of old design, dating back to the 1980s, this does not seem bad to me
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/stemme_s10

empty weight: 645 kg (1,422 lb)
gross weight: 850 kg (1,874 lb)
powerplant: 1 × rotax 914 f2/s1 supercharged flat-four engine, 84.6 kw (113.5 hp)
cruising speed: 259 km/h (161 mph; 140 kn)
never exceed speed: 270 km/h (170 mph; 150 kn)
g limits: +5.3/-2.65
maximum glide ratio: 50

e si trovano anche usati ad un prezzo tutto sommato nel budgethttp://www.aircraft24.com/it/singleprop/stemme/s-10-chrysalis-s10-v--xi106267.htm

 

[Tequila]

In the meantime, I am continuing to graze on the net in search of possible motorists to convert, for example, although of old design, dating back to the 1980s, this does not seem bad to me
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/stemme_s10

empty weight: 645 kg (1,422 lb)
gross weight: 850 kg (1,874 lb)
powerplant: 1 × rotax 914 f2/s1 supercharged flat-four engine, 84.6 kw (113.5 hp)
cruising speed: 259 km/h (161 mph; 140 kn)
never exceed speed: 270 km/h (170 mph; 150 kn)
g limits: +5.3/-2.65
maximum glide ratio: 50

e si trovano anche usati ad un prezzo tutto sommato nel budgethttp://www.aircraft24.com/it/singleprop/stemme/s-10-chrysalis-s10-v--xi106267.htm

this as a line is similar to the taurus of the pipistrel, i.e. two-seat glider flanked with double retractable rhotine under the fuselage. the only difference not recently is the rotax 914 (Turkish version) that with the cost of the motor alone you buy a luxury car.

 

[gil]

I'm zero.
I think I have understood that you require very close administration to the maximum feasible.
I suggest that in optimal conditions, the plane does what is required, but if there is wind against it? If it rains? if the manager takes a product sample from the weight of 10 kg holding on his knees? and if one day the driver who gives him is an overweight guy?
or will they land on the meadows?

so I guess we will have to predict an increase in load to the theoretical one.
I also imagine that it serves a further safety margin to compensate for any problems of performance of batteries (after a few charges do not make the 100% theoretical), of the engine, etc.
so perhaps, you will have to take into account an additional security margin. 20%, 30%?

at the end you want to be sure that that plane runs 100km, always, in all conditions you will need to use a theoretical autonomy of 150km or more.

Is that possible?

 

[Tequila]

The engine detail does not concern me with an electric motor of 60 kw peak (2 min) and 35 continuous weighs about 11 kg and are easily fitted, let's say that with 22 kg of motor I can pull on a two-seater without too much problems.

if you are around 30-35 kg of engine is good

for the weight there is no problem all the pilots who would possibly bring the car are enabled also to the multimotor reaction (ex line pilots or former military including many aliantists ) so if the correct weight of the car is 500 or 600 kg there is no problem to make it homologated as an airplane, indeed it would be better as management to have a fleet of only aircraft that not a mixed plane and ulm

If you don't have the limits of weight and you can stay on aircraft instead of the ulm best.

for charging there is no problem both for issues of "logistics" (the management meetings always take at least half a day) and for the presence of 2 fast charging stations from 30kw already 'included' in the package that will be placed in the starting and arrival airports.

remaining on the aircraft you have no limits of quotas and zones to fly as everything would be managed with planes. It also assesses the possibility of using the aircraft for flight ifr, in winter at 16 o'clock in the afternoon it is already dark especially in mountain areas.. .

about 300 km of range I need in the process unique because this is the safety margin I want to keep to cover the distance from sondrio to Bolzano (in theory about 170 km).

ok, possibly made to say by those in the field if it treats it sondrio-bolzano as flight plan is a straight line or if you have to follow a particular route, so the 170 km could increase.

I also calculated the extra energy you need to consider to bring an aircraft of 600 kg from the altitude of 200 m slm up to 2000 m slm that is almost 3 kwh ... means to have in the batteries at least 6 kwh considering the various inefficiencies in play
...cut...

including:
increase wing surface
variable step propeller???? Could it serve? )
better batteries (although I have seen that like wh/kg are already almost as good as my best suppliers, at most I think I can row a 3-4%)

to reach 300 km more' svalico admitting that the increased wing and other changes manage to maintain the efficiency of the modified plane equal to that of the original would serve in theory 36 kwh with the plane that would weigh full load (450 aircraft orig +146 batt agg + 30 modifications) 626 kg

the variable step propeller serves, for quick decollies in short spaces and to reduce the consumption on the cross. the increase of the wing surface will give you more portance but consequently you will have more resistance, all must be well evaluated so the choice of a wing type glider.
I don't know about batteries and electric motors.

consider well other "small" aspects. in winter it flies better, the air is denser so lifting from the ground is easier, in summer with the warmer and more rarefied air it is more difficult to generate portance for which to make quota is more difficult. each flight is different from the previous one for which it evaluates well the energy consumption speech to make quota from 200 mt slm to 2000 mt slm.
to me it happened when I was flying in the mountains of the days with strong descendants and there was no way to make quota even at all motor. my ulm weighed with me on board and full of fuel less than 300kg and with 64cv motor.

Hi.