yudansha
Guest
hahaha, the horse's got me killed.
I can't help you.
a "global" software would be unthinkable.
the initial post in fact drew attention to the fact that this wants only to be a chat to probe what are the most recurring criticalities due to choices that mature on evaluations of several different departments.
already if the departments are more than two mature the "solution" would be a mess (as in practice it is).
I will not take the award, I am pleased to have opened the discussion that I hope will be interesting and of comparison
Tequila
Guest
They're state secrets that in comparison to Ufo files are like jokes at the bar.
+
This happens to me often and willingly, I have clashed myself several times with the bosses saying that when the machines mounts the guy would want the tolerances to be of one type and when he mounts another. I said that if they want to make a double or triple set of identical designs customised according to the editor, but they have to decide a priori before the production who will mount the machine.
not to mention the revisions... in 2007 project a structure of a machine not just trivial, end project/production I get some changes to perform/forature to add/ecc. I do so review 1. a few months later they launch the same machine into production, it is performed with rev.1 , changes the editor... you get to rev.2
. I am present at the high spheres that the "menates" that made me change non have no actual utility. nothing to do is run rev. 2 . a few months after even further production of the machine, this time in rev.2 , changes again the editor and "magie magic" further changes to do. you get to rev.3, cnc operators ask me if I'm taking them for the "culo", I tell them that I threw the sponge after revision 1 and that they arrange with the climbers and the boss.well, we are at the end of 2012 and the project in question is to the revision 7, fortunately stable in the rankings from 1 year to stand part. for obvious reasons I cannot, but I would post the pdf of all the revisions made at least you make 4 laughs and you will notice that the revisions 2-4-6 have several holes that return to their place compared to the revisions 1-3-5.
For my part, I have responded that if they want to create a job, I thank them, but I can use my time better than to "size" paper for nothing.
PierArg
Guest
I think I have serious communication problems. ..biggrin:hahaha, the horse's got me killed.
I can't help you.
a "global" software would be unthinkable.
the initial post in fact drew attention to the fact that this wants only to be a chat to probe what are the most recurring criticalities due to choices that mature on evaluations of several different departments.
already if the departments are more than two mature the "solution" would be a mess (as in practice it is).
I will not take the award, I am pleased to have opened the discussion that I hope will be interesting and of comparison
I did not say that making such an instrument leads to find the "truths of the sacred graal".
but it is definitely a tool that allows a communication in "real time" and in which each figure/enter makes a contribution.
then it will be the care of the designer, just as told by mbt and fulvio, to break the information and to be able to secrete what it considers interesting.
example:
Today I realize that a threaded hole of a flange instead of m8 must be m10.
I open the virtual tool and ask the various agencies (shopping office, production, logistics, etc.) if there are problems for them.
I also ask that the acqu. make a new quote (in case it is an external component) or, in case of an internal component, the logistics to estimate the new machine times and provide me with the "count".
This document automatically sends notification messages (such as credit card :biggrin
to interested entities.after a few days each body will have finished its operation and the sw launches a loop closing message. Perhaps you could make sure that the message is sent every time every institution closes its pertinence phase so that you can "correct the shot" every time.
Once the process is finished, the document closes and remains "locked" forever.
I don't care the truth about the particle of God, but only the repercussions my choice would have.
We put that the production resp says: ok, we have the equipment to screw the new screw on that new hole.
It's normal that after a second, if it comes out that the equipment is missing, it's not my caxxis.
or we say that the acq mould responds: "It costs 3€ more, you take responsibility."
and maybe the commercial could answer: "the customer offers us a delta price of 5€ so we also earn."
etc., etc., etc.
Finally, on the basis of information, the designer draws the appropriate conclusions (and here, as I have already said in a previous post, the software can not do so otherwise we fall into the hub of lightning).
wanting, with this tool, you can add interesting statistics:
- time that takes every body to finish its part from time to time (this is the difference with the simple communication via email...here you are "cronometrate")
- average loop duration time
- number of loops managed in a reference period for each body
- others that don't come to mind
PierArg
Guest
For example, a part of the production award that takes into account the closing time of the loop... so I want to see if everyone runs.
Moreover, once the document is frozen, each institution is responsible for what it wrote/communicated.
so let's see if the tequila editor wants to break the c...ni. :finger:
verba volant, scripta manent
MBT
Guest
Eeehhh... but today you say it because we have a "friend" in common.. .
MBT
Guest
But I think it didn't happen. .
it is said that in the equestrian monuments the position of the front legs of the horse says how the knight died
if both legs are lifted, the knight died in battle
if only one leg is lifted, the rider was wounded and died after
if the legs are all on the ground, the knight died for other causes
not knowing how to die... I will predict all the hypotheses
Fulvio Romano
Guest
Well, then I'll tell you a story that's ripping my liver apart, put it in the storage of possible situations.
in a particular production plant a very delicate process is made because directly connected with the surface quality of the final product. Usually this process is done by hand, but the operation is risky, so you want to automate it. There is a very simple automatic system (a system) and inexpensive to achieve it, but this is often not good because the quality level of the operator is higher. then a company decides to invest and develop a very sophisticated system (b system) for the solution of the problem. After several researches, he developed a prototype for this new machine, and started it on a plant.
As soon as the boss lights it up, "What's the matter? there is the solution 'a' that goes well, clutters less and costs a tenth".
question: "then why have you never installed it?", "why when to spend a lira you have to ask questions in paper, instead I see that if one has the right entrances he can sell even these absurd markings."
Good. I ask the director of plant clarifications, he replies, "ah, yes, the solution we had installed five years ago, was up for six months, we had to remove it because it gave qualitative problems". I'm going back to practice my car.
Pass the area and tell me: "What's the robber? do you know that there is the 'a' solution that is better and costs less?' I'll tell him: "eh, no! the solution 'a', just because too simple, from quality problems"; "What do you say? We had it right here for six months, then they took it out because they broke it and there was no money to fix it."
Mogio, I'm going to the senior chief and I'm asking him for clarification. "What do they say? Was she removed because she gave quality problems? thanks, those imbeciles decided to install it while we were doing an experimental campaign of production of different materials, but with the classic materials of now it works very well, only that they do not install it anymore because now is in circulation the voice that does not work and therefore does not work".
I'm moving back to my car. He passes the quality manager and asks me how it goes, I tell him that we still do not know, we are doing the tests, but then I ask him: "You know, you're the only one here with a degree, here I am told that five years ago they installed the system 'a'. Tell me how it went?" starts laughing: "look, the system was installed during an experimental campaign, and it was done with knowledge of the cause, since in that experimental campaign they were made simpler than usual products (as for this process), and even in that case the operation was satisfactory. On the other machine in the other department (similar to the one we talk about) they installed a system of type a2.0 which is an improved system, but I don't know how it goes, because I don't take care of that department. "
I'm curious and I'm going to ask in the other department:
- Chief area: "A2.0 system? works perfectly, it is a jewel, not like the ca77ata that you are installing in the other department"
- operator 1: "A2.0 system? a gross, we have to keep behind him all the time because he loses references and risks even blocking the process"
- operator 2: "Oh... more or less well, however it increases so much dust (process dust) of the environment that it has become impossible to stay in plant. On the ground there are constantly ten centimeters of dust, which we can't even wipe it out, otherwise we breathe it all.
- responsabile (of this other department): "A2.0 system? quite well if one is behind us, but there are qualitative problems related to the type of changes introduced by 2.0 that put us in serious difficulty. Unfortunately, nothing can be done because it is the kind of technology that brings these problems. By the way, that new brand you have in the other department... that uses a different technology and should not have these problems. How's it going? "
end first part.
Fulvio Romano
Guest
Part two.
machine installed for a few months. I meet the plant manager and ask him how it goes. He doesn't know, he makes a call, then he pisses at me: "They tell me that the b system is not working, why?" I answer: "I asked her how she's going, she made a call. Why does not ask this question to the person with whom to speak on the phone who is obviously more informed than me?" other call, meeting for the next day.
the next day I go half an hour before and I pass through the department. I ask an operator: "Why is the b system not working?" "because we turned it off after the trials, no one told us to use it, and if it is not in the procedures we cannot use it." "I'm sorry... the <non funziona=""> means <non funzione="" in="" è=""> or <non bene="" lavora="">?" "No, no, it just means we're not making it work."
the meeting begins:
Director of establishment: "but in short, how can a car cost the wrath of God not work? "
Chief area: "Operators say it's not good, so they don't use it."
I (who knew... hi hi hi): "Do operators decide themselves not to use it? What do you do? Do you obey your operators without even knowing what the problems are? because we don't call the operators right now and ask them" (I'm saying "at this moment", because I know there's the turn I've spoken to, hi hi hi).
The meeting goes on a little longer, I'm victorious. but then I decide to follow the car personally. If the master's eye greases the horse, the designer's eye also makes the machines work, right?
after a few months the situation is this:
</non></non></non>operator 1: "the b system does not work, exceeds with materials and we risk process stops"operator 2: "the b system works, but since we have to stay behind him, it's worth doing by hand, right? "operator 3: "the b system works, but it is too bulky, wasn't the 'a' solution better?"operator 4: "the b system works, and well, but are we sure it is not a gun to shoot a fly? "operator 5: "the b system does not work, because it stops continuously and an infinite number of alarms come out." "that alarms?" "I don't know... an infinity I haven't even read."operator 6: "Yes, it is true that it stops continuously, but only if the security optical barriers are not kept clean. Just clean them once a week and it's okay. "Chief machine: "It was good, for we decided to take it out of the way." "Sorry?" "eh, yes... it's not perfect, so it goes slowly out of range with risk for the process, but as it goes very well, operators for a safety excess go to get a coffee, they come back after an hour and you risk the process went to frogs. much better to remove the system and force them to do by hand, so they must necessarily stand there to check.operator 3:"What do you think? Coffee? we are here to break our backs, and stoca77o system is so cumbersome that we can't look at the process."Chief: "the system goes wrong. since we installed it has worsened the xy process defect."responsabile qualità junior: "but they say, the xy defect is independent of the process managed by the b. system is just a coincidence."responsabile qualità senior: "In theory it is independent, but in practice the system b with its process increases the temperature of the products, and this has an influence on the xy defect. therefore the correlation between use of the b system and presence of the xy defect is direct. ".responsabile qualità senior 2: "the temperature? you could also be. you have installed the car in February, now it is May... is the greater temperature of the products due to the system b or the fact that spring has arrived?" "Well, you have historical data." "certainly, just ask the operators, who remember what happened in the previous years. "Oh, operators... Whatever. "Director of establishment: "I guess, it's ca77o machine is not going, you have to add sensors like ab, which will improve the process." "Sorry... the type of sensors ab... it is difficult that it will work..." "but don't say nonsense, I saw them work!" " Excuse me... where?" "here it is full of workshops that use them, so they work, it is useless that the professor does." "but... forgive me... in the workshop? They are very delicate optical sensors, in the workshop it is obvious that they work, but here we are in steelworks, and I tell you that it will not work".
I have a little simplified, because it is a story that has been going on for three years, but the juice is there. we talk about a company of 2500 employees that invoices 3.5 million euros a year.
Do you know "one, none and one hundred thousand" of pirandello?
Here, go, put it in the software.
machine installed for a few months. I meet the plant manager and ask him how it goes. He doesn't know, he makes a call, then he pisses at me: "They tell me that the b system is not working, why?" I answer: "I asked her how she's going, she made a call. Why does not ask this question to the person with whom to speak on the phone who is obviously more informed than me?" other call, meeting for the next day.
the next day I go half an hour before and I pass through the department. I ask an operator: "Why is the b system not working?" "because we turned it off after the trials, no one told us to use it, and if it is not in the procedures we cannot use it." "I'm sorry... the <non funziona=""> means <non funzione="" in="" è=""> or <non bene="" lavora="">?" "No, no, it just means we're not making it work."
the meeting begins:
Director of establishment: "but in short, how can a car cost the wrath of God not work? "
Chief area: "Operators say it's not good, so they don't use it."
I (who knew... hi hi hi): "Do operators decide themselves not to use it? What do you do? Do you obey your operators without even knowing what the problems are? because we don't call the operators right now and ask them" (I'm saying "at this moment", because I know there's the turn I've spoken to, hi hi hi).
The meeting goes on a little longer, I'm victorious. but then I decide to follow the car personally. If the master's eye greases the horse, the designer's eye also makes the machines work, right?
after a few months the situation is this:
</non></non></non>operator 1: "the b system does not work, exceeds with materials and we risk process stops"operator 2: "the b system works, but since we have to stay behind him, it's worth doing by hand, right? "operator 3: "the b system works, but it is too bulky, wasn't the 'a' solution better?"operator 4: "the b system works, and well, but are we sure it is not a gun to shoot a fly? "operator 5: "the b system does not work, because it stops continuously and an infinite number of alarms come out." "that alarms?" "I don't know... an infinity I haven't even read."operator 6: "Yes, it is true that it stops continuously, but only if the security optical barriers are not kept clean. Just clean them once a week and it's okay. "Chief machine: "It was good, for we decided to take it out of the way." "Sorry?" "eh, yes... it's not perfect, so it goes slowly out of range with risk for the process, but as it goes very well, operators for a safety excess go to get a coffee, they come back after an hour and you risk the process went to frogs. much better to remove the system and force them to do by hand, so they must necessarily stand there to check.operator 3:"What do you think? Coffee? we are here to break our backs, and stoca77o system is so cumbersome that we can't look at the process."Chief: "the system goes wrong. since we installed it has worsened the xy process defect."responsabile qualità junior: "but they say, the xy defect is independent of the process managed by the b. system is just a coincidence."responsabile qualità senior: "In theory it is independent, but in practice the system b with its process increases the temperature of the products, and this has an influence on the xy defect. therefore the correlation between use of the b system and presence of the xy defect is direct. ".responsabile qualità senior 2: "the temperature? you could also be. you have installed the car in February, now it is May... is the greater temperature of the products due to the system b or the fact that spring has arrived?" "Well, you have historical data." "certainly, just ask the operators, who remember what happened in the previous years. "Oh, operators... Whatever. "Director of establishment: "I guess, it's ca77o machine is not going, you have to add sensors like ab, which will improve the process." "Sorry... the type of sensors ab... it is difficult that it will work..." "but don't say nonsense, I saw them work!" " Excuse me... where?" "here it is full of workshops that use them, so they work, it is useless that the professor does." "but... forgive me... in the workshop? They are very delicate optical sensors, in the workshop it is obvious that they work, but here we are in steelworks, and I tell you that it will not work".
I have a little simplified, because it is a story that has been going on for three years, but the juice is there. we talk about a company of 2500 employees that invoices 3.5 million euros a year.
Do you know "one, none and one hundred thousand" of pirandello?
Here, go, put it in the software.
Fulvio Romano
Guest
by the way, if you think it's an isolated case, try reading here:http://www.cad3d.it/forum1/showthread.php?t=25107&page=9post #88 and #89
a description actually much more picturesque and made better than mine. Too bad the guy disappeared.
a description actually much more picturesque and made better than mine. Too bad the guy disappeared.
Tequila
Guest
That's why sometimes I'd like to quit everything and move to the mountains to breed boars or a farm to train pony in captivity. . .
PierArg
Guest
I think it's wrong.
You don't have to question the operators but the managers of the department.
are not against the operators (we would miss it. ..to speak just me that I often go to the workshop to ask if they have problems during the processing/assembly) but purtoppo most of them two days before was pizzaiolo, the day before plumber, today is operator and the day after will be electrician (unfortunately :frown.
I'm not able to give reliable judgments.
and when there is someone who is able (because it is "stable") to 99% of the cases is a pain in the poisoned liver that sees the white collars blah blah blah blah... (see tequila editor)
you, in the important decisions, must ask the responsible. they will be able to "digest" changes to the various employees.
And then you don't write. ..when I came "on mission" there, I noticed that operators are all Nepalese:biggrin:
so it is already very much if they answer you in Italian "corrupt.... other than graduation
p.s. 3.5 million turnover perhaps are a little...willing to say 3.5 billion euros
You don't have to question the operators but the managers of the department.
are not against the operators (we would miss it. ..to speak just me that I often go to the workshop to ask if they have problems during the processing/assembly) but purtoppo most of them two days before was pizzaiolo, the day before plumber, today is operator and the day after will be electrician (unfortunately :frown
.I'm not able to give reliable judgments.
and when there is someone who is able (because it is "stable") to 99% of the cases is a pain in the poisoned liver that sees the white collars blah blah blah blah... (see tequila editor)
you, in the important decisions, must ask the responsible. they will be able to "digest" changes to the various employees.
And then you don't write. ..when I came "on mission" there, I noticed that operators are all Nepalese:biggrin:
so it is already very much if they answer you in Italian "corrupt.... other than graduation
p.s. 3.5 million turnover perhaps are a little...willing to say 3.5 billion euros
Fulvio Romano
Guest
No, I'm not talking about those operators there. I'm talking about specialized operators. see the case I described. the department manager tells me "it doesn't work", the operator tells me "it doesn't work because it's off. they told us not to turn it on."I think it's wrong.
You don't have to question the operators but the managers of the department.
are not against the operators (we would miss it. ..to speak just me that I often go to the workshop to ask if they have problems during the processing/assembly) but purtoppo most of them two days before was pizzaiolo, the day before plumber, today is operator and the day after will be electrician (unfortunately :frown
I'm not able to give reliable judgments.
and when there is someone who is able (because it is "stable") to 99% of the cases is a puzzle that sees the white collars blah blah blah blah... (see tequila editor)
you, in the important decisions, must ask the responsible. they will be able to "digest" changes to the various employees.
And then you don't write. ..when I came "on mission" there, I noticed that operators are all Nepalese:biggrin:
so it is already very much if they answer you in Italian "corrupt.... other than graduation
The department manager doesn't want any trouble. If something goes, he doesn't care about anything to improve it. It's just additional work for him.
If the system doesn't go b, he has responsibility. If the operator doesn't go, just bark a little and complain to his bosses. I'd rather the operation be done by hand.
p.s.
your "mission" was at our production departments, I am talking about our customers, it is a completely different world.
Yes, I actually did wrong. I wanted to write billions, but it would still be wrong. This is 900 million from the last budget.
MBT
Guest
I'm sorry, but I'm sorry.I think it's wrong.
You don't have to question the operators but the managers of the department.
are not against the operators (we would miss it. ..to speak just me that I often go to the workshop to ask if they have problems during the processing/assembly) but purtoppo most of them two days before was pizzaiolo, the day before plumber, today is operator and the day after will be electrician (unfortunately :frown
I'm not able to give reliable judgments.
and when there is someone who is able (because it is "stable") to 99% of the cases is a pain in the poisoned liver that sees the white collars blah blah blah blah... (see tequila editor)
you, in the important decisions, must ask the responsible. they will be able to "digest" changes to the various employees.
And then you don't write. ..when I came "on mission" there, I noticed that operators are all Nepalese:biggrin:
so it is already very much if they answer you in Italian "corrupt.... other than graduation
I have already experienced several times on my helmet that operators and leaders know different things. different information, sometimes both false, which make up the same puzzle.
You have to question everyone. all will lie, but by comparing you will understand where the probable truth is
sometimes, things don't work because operators don't like
sometimes things don't work because bosses don't like
If you ask only one, you will know half what you need
to me it happened that a car, capped by the managers, was deliberately made mal-function by the operators because they saw it as a "possible source of dismissals"
If you were talking to the director, she was great. if you talked to the operator was "a real merd@"
moral. . disassembled car!
is a small company... What do you want? .
PierArg
Guest
Eccaccacchio!!!! :biggrin:
you can see that you come from the same company
:hahahah:
but give the right weight to the words and then always make their own conclusions.
Unfortunately often the true is not on the part of the true but by those who have power.
Therefore, thanks to the instrument I mentioned, it is a way to document and "justify" such choices.
example:
If the acuist office tells me to take the bearing x because the y costs too much I don't do much trouble.
I keep communication inside the project documentation and the trait as if it were the secret of coca cola. so, when the x bearing breaks and someone will complain to the cause of a design problem, I will take that communication and I will go to the 4 winds!
MBT
Guest
He comes to us. .
I worked there over 10 years ago...
for this I wrote:
Oh, look. .
with the purchasing office I have always made unclean quarrels, based on reciprocal and always imaginative insults:angry:
Fulvio Romano
Guest
fused more than forged... However it is not a matter of working in the same company, it is the environment that is that.
on the other side of the world, completely different companies, but similar problems because... where steel is made, it needs a titanium liver!
MBT
Guest
I agree!
we are in a sub-agricultural environment. . .