electric motor without control panel is machine or almost machine?

[reggio]

(reconnects partly to machine with electric motor: I follow only 2006/42ce or even 2006/95ce.. ?)the doubt is atrocious, in our case, we build transport systems (ships, rollers, highs, etc.) all appliances that we can provide in 3 ways:

a- part/mechanical axis without electric motor/pneumatic
b- part/axieme mechanic + electric motor/pneumatic
c- part/axieme mechanic + electric motor/pneumatic + control panel

for each of these 3 cases, then two ways of use can be hypothesized which, I presume, could change the approach to the directive (or not?) which are:

d- the conveyor is born to be used without the use of other machines (for example the operator loads the conveyor that throws the material loaded in a container placed at the end of the conveyor) in this case I would say that the tool is able to perform a application (but what is then an "application"? ) ben determinata, right?
e- the conveyor is born to be used with the use of other machines (for example our carrier "y" receives material from the machine "x" and the download on the machine "z") in this case the tool "y" is able to perform a well defined application If the "x" and/or "z" are missing?
... but let's reread the definitions for a moment:

(a) 'machine':
— together equipped or intended to be equipped
of a drive system other than human force
or direct animal, composed of parts or components, of
which at least one mobile, connected solidly
for awell defined application,
— together with the first indent, to which only
linking elements to the site of use or
linking energy and movement sources,
— together with the first and second indent, ready for
to be installed and that can only work after
status mounted on a means of transport or installed in
a building or in a building,
— sets of machines, of which the first, the second and the
third indent, or quasi-machine, referred to in letter g),
that to achieve the same result are arranged and
commanded to have a solid functioning,
— assembly of parts or components, of which at least one
mobile, connected solidly and intended for lifting
of weights and whose only source of energy is strength
direct human;

(g) 'quasi-macchine': sets that make up almost one
machine machine confused: ... is almost a car almost a car? ? ? ),
but that, alone, I cannot guarantee
awell defined application. a drive system
It's almost a machine. the almost-machines are
only intended to be incorporated or assembled to
other machines or other machines or appliances
a machine governed by this Directive;
so at this point, these 6 types of "objects" that we can treat, as should be considered, machines or almost machines:a&d- part/axieme mechanic without electric motor/pneumatic that is born to be used without the use of other machines (for example the operator loads the conveyor that with the gravity push throws the material loaded in a container placed at the end of the conveyor)=

a&e- part/axieme mechanic without electric motor/pneumatic that is born to be used with the use of other machines (eg our conveyor "y" receives material from the machine "x" and, with the thrust of gravity, the discharge on the machine "z")=

b&d- part/axieme mechanic + electric motor/pneumatic that is born to be used without the use of other machines (for example the operator loads the conveyor that, thanks to its motor, if powered, throws the material loaded in a container placed at the end of the conveyor)=

b&e- part/axieme mechanic + electric motor/pneumatic that is born to be used with the use of other machines (eg our conveyor "y" receives material from the machine "x" and, thanks to its motor, if powered, the download on the machine "z")=


c&d- part/axieme mechanic + electric motor/pneumatic + control panel (as above but with electric picture supplied together with the conveyor)=

c&e- part/axieme mechanic + electric motor/pneumatic + control panel (as above but with electric picture supplied together with the conveyor)=

 

[Fulvio Romano]

I try to interpret, then the master will beg me... :finger:

the application is in any case well defined, that is to move the material from one point to one point b. therefore the tape will never be a almost machine.

You talk about "gravity force." Considering the principle behind the directive, if something happens you can stop the machine by stopping applying force? If this is not possible, because it goes on with the force of gravity, I think this must be considered "a system of drive other than human or animal force".

in all other cases the system is equipped with motor, then of "drive", unhappy word that should be replaced with "actuator", because in automation the drive is the drive...

so in my opinion in all cases the tape is a machine, with the benefit of doubt for the force of gravity.

The master who says?

 

[reggio]

Thank you! :

the application is in any case well defined, that is to move the material from one point to one point b. therefore the tape will never be a almost machine.

.
Would you give me an example of almost a car?

You talk about "gravity force." Considering the principle behind the directive, if something happens you can stop the machine by stopping applying force? If this is not possible, because it goes on with the force of gravity, I think this must be considered "a system of drive other than human or animal force".

So also a roller roller (free) and horizontal is a machine?
i.e. a roller conveyor without engine that allows to move the material from one point to one point b only with the man force (it is horizontal then we also remove the force of gravity): the man pushes and imprints inertia, so the material will stop only when he has exhausted his inertia or if he slams against a stop (hiving there is no finger in the middle) or falls to the ground... Are you still a car? :frown:

so in my opinion in all cases the tape is a machine, with the benefit of doubt for the force of gravity.

The master who says?

... :frown: aiuto... poveri noi ...

 

[gerod]

complex topic and which deserves insights.
I am writing a document for almost machines hoping that this will make clarity. In reality the guidelines are very clear apart from a point where clarity becomes contradiction.
I would invite you to read the guide.

the tape however is a machine since its use destination is quite clear. more or less like the armor that is a car, he lifts but we do not know what!
then if I put it or not, the engine is still a car.
on the absence of "drive system" then there is a nice speech that deserves insights that now I don't have time to face (discuss me!).
what says lightning is basically correct.
the fact that one puts a car or almost machine in the market does not exempt it from considering the applicable res, ergo, in any case, I must guarantee that what I do is safe.
then, let me say that the tape is a rather simple machine and therefore simple to handle just as a machine.

 

[Fulvio Romano]

Would you give me an example of almost a car?

You punch me on the live...an example of almost machine is an industrial robot. Light it up and stay still, because until you attack us a tool and write us a software has no idea why it came to the world.
Then you buy it, program it, you put the protections all around it, and the cell becomes "machine".

So also a roller roller (free) and horizontal is a machine?

I'd say no. that goes on with the force of man, as described in the directive. Otherwise even a frisbee would be a car since it has an inertia, no?

on the absence of "drive system" then there is a nice speech that deserves insights that now I don't have time to face (discuss me!).

We are in tremendous wait.

what says lightning is basically correct.

It's that "substantially" that annoys me...:biggrin:

 

[gerod]

It's that "substantially" that annoys me...:biggrin:

substantiallyWhat bothers you?
I agree, you totally wanted to? ? ? ?

 

[gerod]

an example of almost machine is an industrial robot

but not in general. if I already buy it ready for a well defined function becomes a machine.

I then struggle to find examples of almost machines because the universe of builders is full of examples but, in my opinion (and not only mine), they should be machines. the position is convenient (= less responsibility).
If you are looking for the paper position cetop on the almost machines you will find a list of components and almost hydraulic machines.
there is also the paper position of eurotrans that defines the gearboxes as components but, if the gearbox is designed for a customer, in short if it is made ad hoc, then it becomes a almost machine.
then there are the drives systems (I leave them in English so you don't mess up), even those almost machines.
from the guide:

for example, an internal combustion engine or a high voltage electric motor
placed on the market and intended to be mounted on machines covered by the Directive
machines will be considered almost-machines.

 

[reggio]

... uhmmm then recapitulating

a&d=a&e=any car?

while

b&d=b&e=c&d=c&e=machine?

Is that so true?

...continue...

 

[Fulvio Romano]

so in my opinion in all cases the tape is a machine, with the benefit of doubt for the force of gravity.

The master who says?

... uhmmm then recapitulating

a&d=a&e=any car?

while

b&d=b&e=c&d=c&e=machine?

Is that so true?

...continue...

Since gerod does not decide to express itself, I try to pull out some strawberry of the directive:

1.6.3
insulation from energy sources
the machine must be equipped with devices that allow it to be isolated from each of its energy sources. Such devices must be clearly identified. must be blocked, if reconnection risks presenting a danger to people. devices must also be able to be blocked if the operator cannot verify the actual isolation from all the locations to which it has access.
in the case of machines that can be powered by a plug, it is sufficient to separate the plug, provided that the operator can verify from all the positions to which it has access, that the plug remains disengaged.any residual or stored energy after the insulation of the machine must be dissipated without risk for people.By way of derogation from the requirement of preceding paragraphs, certain circuits may not be separated from their source of energy in order to allow, for example, the support of pieces, the protection of information, the lighting of the internal parts, etc. in this case special provisions must be taken to ensure the safety of the operators.

and guidelines:

the third paragraph of point 1.6.3 prescribes that the machine is equipped with means to dissipate the stored energy that could lead to a risk for operators. such stored energy can include, for example, kinetic energy (mobile elements inertia), the energy of fluids under pressure connected to electricity (condenser), that of springs or elements of the machine susceptible to move according to their weight.

That doesn't tell me the question. explains what a car needs to do, not if the car is a car.