note on drawings of reference to math 3d: what does the norm say?

[320i S]

Good morning, I looked inside the forum, but I did not find arguments about it.
I come to the point: we are faced with a crossroads, the vast majority of suppliers, has all the tools to open and process the 3d mathematicians that we design, in particular assembled of carpentry and sheet, this is making increasingly "useless" the quotation of the less important details of the elements (especially on the sheet), and we have already abolished developments, as possible source of errors for the different types of bending machines present today.
the idea that I am trying to bring, is to demand to mathematics 3d (formed step ap214) the details of minor importance, and to quote only the really important one (tolerated rates, bending, bulking etc.), it does not need to list the advantages of all this.

Unfortunately, however, we still have a couple of suppliers that are not equipped to open a 3d (it looks amazing in 2019 and fill the mouth of Industry 4.0) and for the "hard dumpling" inside the company that "all should be quoted" and this makes datribe even quite lit.

I ask therefore to whom there has already been: does there exist a norm, to make official the use of 3d maths combined with 2d tables, to be able to mention in the drawings?
Thank you.

 

[gil]

Unfortunately many companies struggle to use a cad 2d. let alone a 3d.
In my case, unfortunately there are suppliers who barely open a 2d design in pdf.
even from me to really use a 3d would be impossible.
you should select suppliers based also on their ability and not only based on cost and delivery speed. but it is a difficult speech to digest.

In principle I agree with you, that using 3d files solves many problems.

 

[exxon]

we have already adopted this methodology to 100 %.

all drawings are provided in electronic format the quotas with tolerance (and geometric tolerances) are indicated only for dimensions and geometries that must be verified when testing and which are an integral part of the supply contract.

just to give an idea, the last supply of carpentry for an operating machine (6000 kg, 3x3x1.5 m), has 70 mb of drawings in .dxf format and I do not believe it arrives to 100 explicit quotas.

 

[LaboratorioDieci]

I know about the solidworks mbd, but in that context I have never heard of official legislation.

 

[ale47p]

we worked with one who only accepted the fax, until last year.
then, finally, he retired

 

[TECNOMODEL]

already exists the step242 format that defines the geometry with the 3d.
is born to exchange even those data that typically in 3d could not be exported, such as dimensional tolerances, shape, roughness etc. in some sectors is already the standard, type in automotive or aeronautical.
the decision is up to you only, if the direction chooses this way suppliers or adapt or lose the job. if the direction does not decide in this sense you can do very little, if nothing.

 

[320i S]

Thanks for the answers here.
tomorrow I will have a meeting to define ( hopefully in favour of procedures more at the pace with the times) as it behaves in the future.
If someone else has useful experiences or info, they can still post them.

 

[cacciatorino]

already exists the step242 format that defines the geometry with the 3d.
is born to exchange even those data that typically in 3d could not be exported, such as dimensional tolerances, shape, roughness etc. in some sectors is already the standard, type in automotive or aeronautical.
the decision is up to you only, if the direction chooses this way suppliers or adapt or lose the job. if the direction does not decide in this sense you can do very little, if nothing.

the simple designers have the lot marked.. .

 

[TECNOMODEL]

the simple designers have the lot marked.. .

I think they can stay quiet a few years....

 

[cacciatorino]

I think they can stay quiet a few years....

I don't know, I often call the workshops to tell me that the 2d lacks a quota but they got it from the 3d (they only call for confirmation), to say. I think it's a closer future than you think.

 

[TECNOMODEL]

I don't know, I often call the workshops to tell me that the 2d lacks a quota but they got it from the 3d (they only call for confirmation), to say. I think it's a closer future than you think.

I believe that we will arrive, knowing our industrial reality I think we will be the last to complete the passage though.

 

[exxon]

issued order this morning for five molds (pvc/pe) for a custom proximity sensor.
not being critical of any kind (tolerances in the tenth order), the general tolerances agreed with the supplier are more than sufficient and therefore have not even been provided drawings 2d.

a single step (4 mb, 700 kb compressed) with all parts assembled in final position.
number of explicit quotas... zero.

the only additional information is in order (material, hardness, color, finish, mold duration).

 

[TECNOMODEL]

if we talk about moldists we have been working with the 3d for years, even because other roads would not exist.
then some also want the table that highlights critical quotas, tolerances etc, but it is agreements between customer and supplier.
the speech can change if we talk about carpenters, simple details, pieces that can be realized by planning machine edge etc.
in this case the "force" of the customer comes into play and how it is structured.
if it is a company with well defined procedures and standards will be the supplier to have to adapt, worth losing the contract.
in case, instead, that the customer is the classic small Italian company things change.
Sometimes, since there are multiannual relationships with suppliers, it is the customer who adapts to the needs of the supplier.

 

[MassiVonWeizen]

from what I see speech 3d is not so encouraged.
we have several customers, also foreign ones, that while having the project in 3d, they deliver only pdf and dxf (some even only pdf or even tiff). to have the 3d you have to request it expressly and it happens that at this request you follow a counter-request of discount on the final price.
and I do not speak of companies of 20/30 people, but of realities present at the global level that always put their hands on saying that the 3d is only for vision and in case of inconsistencies always faith the pdf/dxf.

 

[TECNOMODEL]

from what I see speech 3d is not so encouraged.
we have several customers, also foreign ones, that while having the project in 3d, they deliver only pdf and dxf (some even only pdf or even tiff). to have the 3d you have to request it expressly and it happens that at this request you follow a counter-request of discount on the final price.
and I do not speak of companies of 20/30 people, but of realities present at the global level that always put their hands on saying that the 3d is only for vision and in case of inconsistencies always faith the pdf/dxf.

Interesting your testimony.
to me it often happens to see 3d not updated with the table, even in these cases makes faith the design 2d.
It is clearly a symptom of a "wrong" method of work, where perhaps the tables are corrected without updating the 3d. I usually happen with Italian companies.

 

[Stefano_GS]

Interesting your testimony.
to me it often happens to see 3d not updated with the table, even in these cases makes faith the design 2d.
It is clearly a symptom of a "wrong" method of work, where perhaps the tables are corrected without updating the 3d. I usually happen with Italian companies.

often happens to me, but with both Italian and non-Italian clients.
someone tells that the 3d maybe of a complex set was done once and then if they vary some particular "minor" they only correct the table. I often get the drawings with "obscured" cartilage even if I never understood the reason. the same companies but to you ask the 3d, the 2d the datasheet of everything... .