simulatore di cnc

[capo801]

Bye to all,

I ask you an information. work in a company that has been developing the cam system for the realization of programs iso machine, and given the results obtained, now you would like to push towards the purchase of a simulator for cnc. the machine in question is a 4-axis cold lathe controlled with siemens 840d control.
considering that as cam software use pro/nc I would like to know which are the best cnc simulation sofwares on the market.

I've heard about Vercut and Roboris. .

Can anyone recommend me?

 

[bulinorotto]

I would say without doubt to evaluate vericut
makes only trade simulation and seems to be the best on the marketwww.cgtech.comI gave an eye to their stand at eurotampi and stayed of ......balsa

 

[capo801]

Thank you for your advice.

I also heard that Vercut should be the best in business.
the only negative aspects of such software told me to be:

-use complexity
-high cost

Sure is, as you say, looking at some examples of veracut applications you are absolutely impressed. . .

 

[emikbo]

hello to all, I am new, I would give an eye also to eureka of roboris, for mechanics is very powerful and especially has the development in Italy ... that does not spoil ...

 

[capo801]

as I said in previous posts the 2 simulation softwares that we considered are veracut (cgt) and eureka of roboris.

we are just trying to understand advantages and disadvantages of the two in order to make the most suitable choice for our needs.

to today we are probably more directed towards eureka, but we still want to consider both to make an accurate assessment of the investment

 

[emikbo]

words sante!!! it is always better to evaluate with accuracy and scrupulity never take anything for granted ... even if the choice can change according to the type of work, from the machines and c.n.c you use, from the exit of the post of the c.a.m, or if you still plan with the c.n.c and the boards on the machine, and especially to the management of the tools, spindles etc. etc... it is always better to see it several times, to avoid unpleasant surprises......

 

[PopeYe]

Maybe stupid question, but pro/e does not have the simulation with collision control inside it because if it is integrated it is usually better mooolto.
try to see also www.machineworks.com , it is used many species in the cams.
Usually however the difference does the post-processor of the simulator since it has to interpret perfectly what comes out from the cam, if from the cam comes out a fairly standard isus then ok but if it is a little more evolved (typical of 840d) then there will be a lot of work for everyone!

 

[emikbo]

The question is not stupid at all! the problem is that the simulators integrated into the c.a.m are often confused with advanced simulators, or virtual machines, the test of the nine is always to simulate a program written to "hand" on the machine, with fixed cycles, subprograms, variables....ecc etc. and the table of length tools where is it???? Where are the origins? ? How do I know if I move the piece in the car so the origins if I go in the end of the race??? ? ...etc.ecc... .

 

[Meccbell]

Emikbo, you're perfectly right. :finger:
personally I have always been quite convinced that the simulators integrated in the cams if "cantino and if they play it" by themselves.

apart from experiences at the limit of the tragic done a few years ago, with friezes that to the simulator of the cam they passed quiet in fast 10 mm above the piece, but that then in reality almost fresavano the table, I believe that the safety to 1000% will never give you anyone, but I also believe that a good, great, safety will surely come from a product that is born and lives only to do what it has been conceived (the simulation end itself) and not

 

[capo801]

actually is an aspect that I have not clarified.
the pro/eng cam has an internal simulator that simulates the tool path generated with the native language coming out of the cam itself, to mean read the cl file (cutter location).

the problems, as you rightly say, arise because control and control are the same entity.

the risk is not to consider a lot of features of the iso code generated by the postprocessor (which trduces the cl file out of the cam) as: various cycles, planned origins g55...., utensile corrections tool, etc...

Furthermore, you should not forget the risk of simulated collision only if you have the 3d simulation of the machine and its kinematics.

the main features of the simulator we are looking for are:

- verification of the iso file output from the postprocessor
- 3d simulation of the whole machine
- automatic control of collisions and operating limits
- simulation of all controller features including special cycles, macros and symbolic programming
- possible generation of custom reports

 

[emikbo]

Bingo!! It's just like that!! Moreover if we think a moment the post processor generator is a software that intervenes after the creation of the cl file generated by the c.a.m and emits the file that realmene goes into the machine, if I simulo before .... What makes him do??? then it is clear that if we talk about "costs" one you can also settle for a simulation on the cl file... But we do not confuse things, that in relativity are very different...... I know veracut and eureka but surely there are others even if I do not believe so many, because we do not forget that then things must also make them work..... and the skills of the people who assist him are fundamental!!!! to sell software are good all, to make it work a little less!!! ! ! !

 

[capo801]

Bingo!! It's just like that!! Moreover if we think a moment the post processor generator is a software that intervenes after the creation of the cl file generated by the c.a.m and emits the file that realmene goes into the machine, if I simulo before .... What makes him do??? then it is clear that if we talk about "costs" one you can also settle for a simulation on the cl file... But we do not confuse things, that in relativity are very different...... I know veracut and eureka but surely there are others even if I do not believe so many, because we do not forget that then things must also make them work..... and the skills of the people who assist him are fundamental!!!! to sell software are good all, to make it work a little less!!! ! ! !

It's just as you say... what matters to me, having to assess the benefits deriving from investment in a technologically advanced product, is the experience and expertise gained in the sectors (in this case at least two: machine tools and modeling).

It is more evident that the usefulness of a simulation of only cl can be sufficient in case the complexity of the machina, on which the component will go, is limited (both in terms of geometry and iso language).

This is certainly not the case of the brake lathe in question and even more than the siemens 840d control.

 

[bulinorotto]

aaaaaaaaa
the simulator integrated in the cam packages is sometimes indispensable.
collisions occur between machine parts, and between machine parts and piece, off-race, angles not reachable , in case of head machines any rewindings of the same.
in short a lot of things.comfort, sometimes need to be equipped with simulator, comes from the fact of checking all qs things before going into the car
directly in the cam.se you give qs task to an external simulator you know what the result is?
I create the path, post-process the amount in the simulator , simulus, I verify the error, return in the cam, recalculate or regrow another path etc. etc.
the fact of managing it in the cam directly is an objective advantage that becomes indispensable if I work at 5 axs
I don't think a simulator has tools to change the angles of a path calculated at 5 axs with a plane............ .

 

[emikbo]

interesting the car head head!! what car is it???? joke obviously you meant head board, it was to lighten a little!!! apart the jokes!!! we do not confuse again things....!!! that already of confusion there is enough!!! you are talking about a concept no matter whether the software is integrated or not, that depends only on the choices of the software manufacturer!! boss has centered well the topic !!!
what must make an advanced simulator is:
- verification of the iso file output from the i.s.o code postprocessor with origins, presetting, tool change, g, m functions, fixed cycles and any macros with custom variables etc... etc.
- 3d simulation of the whole machine
- automatic control of collisions and operating limits
- control of the maximum dimensions of the mountable tool in stock
- simulation of all the characteristics of the controller including special cycles, macro and symbolic programming, conditioned jumps, variables (e.g. heiden qs, selca ps, fanuc #s etc.... )
- possible generation of custom reports
- I would add:
- possibility to change the angle of incidence of the tool without recalculating the path.(This obviously is not possible in the case of 5 axes continuously, but it is for 3 + 2)
-Tasting management
- working cycles with time for quotes
then it is clear from what writes bulinorotto it is understood that it does 5 ax machining continuously, one piece at a time on vertical machine and perhaps with max 20/30 tools and therefore for that type of processing can use the simulator of cl file... if you think of any other feature maybe it can be useful to everyone to ask during demonstration or testing at the cam seller.

 

[bulinorotto]

there are many types of machines characterized by different cinematics
head-head machine configuration encloses all those machines that have axle handling on the head(jobs for example)
My intervention is aimed precisely at clarifying the concept not to confuse it. ...
When working at 5 emikbo axes daily, I assure you that having an integration in the cam package is not a small thing.
I can load the 3d model of the machine and see in real time whether I go to slam or not (in zero time)
I have several utenisle machines:
head-head-head-table and table-table.my partner also has 5 axs continuous turning-fresh. basically a little bit.
for the type of processing is milled and returns what there is (ah forgotten I also have a horizontal makino with 140 tools)
I hope I have given a complete reading key to the simulator speech.
bye

 

[capo801]

there are many types of machines characterized by different cinematics
head-head machine configuration encloses all those machines that have axle handling on the head(jobs for example)
My intervention is aimed precisely at clarifying the concept not to confuse it. ...
When working at 5 emikbo axes daily, I assure you that having an integration in the cam package is not a small thing.
I can load the 3d model of the machine and see in real time whether I go to slam or not (in zero time)
I have several utenisle machines:
head-head-head-table and table-table.my partner also has 5 axs continuous turning-fresh. basically a little bit.
for the type of processing is milled and returns what there is (ah forgotten I also have a horizontal makino with 140 tools)
I hope I have given a complete reading key to the simulator speech.
bye

the reading key you gave is definitely interesting also because it is evident that it comes from a person with great experience.

I emphasize only one aspect: I do not want to say that the simulation of the cl file is useless, indeed I always use it to check in front of any collisions with tools present in the machine or with tools, tool holders and anything else.

The only problem is that I would never trust to go in the car with closed eyes only with a cam simulation. (of course I speak of components of a certain geometric and/or dimensional complexity).

I ask you more information, I know that you talk about loading the 3d model of the whole machine; Does that mean you modeled it or asked the manufacturer to provide you with a 3d model of maximum interest? ?

Hello and thank you again.

 

[bulinorotto]

powermill contains in the installation cd a lot of machines in 3d ready for simulation.
some (the simple ones I designed them) others I bought them (and paid salt) directly from the manufacturer.
I agree with you that simulating the cl file not from absolute guarantees.
I think, however, that even the simulator doesn't give you
I think about the cycle def 32 of h and the parameter of th
in case you saw an arbitrary position function of the corner even the simulator could not verify it
but porc acc huhnbbdw!!1 calls me from the workshop maybe we banged.......
I'm going over there. . . .
Good evening
at least for you

 

[emikbo]

Here I am! Excuse me but yesterday I was a little...! Of course you can never joke around here!:biggrin: I thought that I answered that the head-head car was such a smart car that did all of her! so today we could all go to the sea:4406: go well!! However I believe that the argument did not want to be of type of machines, if head tilt, rather than like "huron" "ftp"mecof" etc... or with all the axes on the head or on the board or on the board or mixed..... etc...etc. and even if the software is integrated or not, the important thing is what it does, we talk about simulator i.s.o??? because if so it is clear that it interprets all cycles concerning machine movements, e.g. cycle 19 plane cycle etc... g68.2 in the case of your makino (fanuc) , g751 of the selca, the matrices of the ecs etc... etc. the cycle 32 t is a cycle of calculation points that according to the tolloranza t (which by default is 0.01) "move" the machine in a more or less fluid way, because saw (as you say the points) precisely for this if you put t to 10 you saw all the edges.... in practice is a "filter" type the ripunti of the elexa different length. ...this is what makes the simulator i.s.o.... in the prtica you are relaunchly on the machine but in a virtual way including the movements in m.d.i... now I run that I will get cold the pappa .... good weekend to all and thanks for the chat... .

 

[emikbo]

opsss!! I was wrong, I wrote "ftp" instead of "fpt" here you see if I was wrong to write a longness in table tools sanza simulator i.s.o would have banged.......:biggrin::biggrin:

 

[PopeYe]

....

the main features of the simulator we are looking for are:

- verification of the iso file output from the postprocessor
- 3d simulation of the whole machine
- automatic control of collisions and operating limits
- simulation of all controller features including special cycles, macros and symbolic programming
- possible generation of custom reports

that I said if pro/e does not have its own simulator because these 'things' make it egregiamente almost all the cams (of the level of pro/e).
of course I think they read all the native file that is the real one and not the post that instead is a more or less 'faithful' adaptation.
even, to give you an example, topsolid has 2 simulations, one where you see the whole machine and serves the 'study' of the cycle (axles, collisions, tooling, etc.) , another for the 'real' processing on the piece with the detection of the removed material (piece-tool display).
with all these controls the error is 'almost' null.
for reports, then, there is only the embarrassment of choice (very customizable).
the error, if there is, is located in the post, but after it has 'ruled' with the due cautele go quiet, then the error you can have also in the pre-processor of the simulator.
so, absurdly (but not so much), if you simulate a cam program you could have a double error, one in the cam post and one in the simulator.
the veracut programs give you other options and are:
simulation of any part-program edited also manually, parametric and not;
simulation of lines type fms with warehouses, robots, etc... ;
almost real calculation of the working time as it also takes into account the axle acceleration.
However, it must be said that these software in recent years have made giant steps and certainly their integration level with the various cad-cams will always be better, at least in words the cgtech site boasts several famous partnerships.
who will make the purchase then place the results, so we will make the ideas even clearer.
so far I have seen vericut only in two constructors of m.u., the first had but not used it much, the second used it for the timing of the turnkey cycles (even here I do not know how much it really used it).