mathematicians fixed with demonstrations?

[KLA#27]

However, you cannot make all the grass a bundle, because not all young people have the [bleep] to do certain things, not even if they are engineers or doctors and even after giving them the opportunity to demonstrate their abilities, as well as not all the old are rechanged to send home or retired.

if as it happened to read and listen to for tg a few years ago of certain graduates who did the state exam (I thought they were future lawyers) and on the writing there were sentences and abbreviations from sms, sincerely to kick in the ass I would send them to remake the elementary ones.

same thing as the young people who even here on the forum write texts as if they use the mobile phone.

There are young horny goats and experienced adult learners... You're right. We don't make any grass a bundle. In my office there are two sixty years... avant-garde curious about the news ready to listen and to innovate and if it is the case to take a step in the back, the other convinced of his convictions and strong of his experiences imperturbable in his state and continues so.... 2 faces of the same coin... I don't want to give birth to a generational clash. ..:angry:

regarding the speech text... I agree with you!!
sometimes nn s understands nothing xo cn qlk abbreviation nn is k make the post incomprehensible, tt to advantage of the speed of writing:biggrin:

jokes aside also the form wants its part, but above all you risk to kill the Italian.

 

[meccanicamg]

I don't want to give birth to a generational clash. ..:angry:

then we are ready to be submissive... We already pay their pensions... and ours? I repeat, it's still too good and there's still too much money.

 

[Tequila]

regarding the speech text... concordo cn te!! sometimes nn s understands nothing xò cn qlk abbreviation nn is k make the posts incomprehensible, tt to advantage of the speed of writing:biggrin:

look me too when I send sms to the fiancée subscribe to stay inside the 160 characters of 1 sms otherwise I should spend money for 2... but on this and other forums there is no maximum limit of characters for a post, no less to a state examination give you only a sheet to write the divine comedy.

look that often and willingly the rapidity of writing leads only to errors that often you pay dear ones... I'd like to see if you go and do some paperwork and write down the shortcuts and then take it from one side and tell you to go back because it's not okay. to me unfortunately with a document of the commune, for an error of the office that have shortened phrases have not accepted me documents, I had to remake that card and lose another half day of work for the c@2z0

 

[KLA#27]

in fact I give you fully right, in fact I always try to be formally correct on the forum... even if seeing abbreviations does not disturb me... But sometimes I don't see them...

per il c@2z0

for precision ca z2 o :finger::biggrin:

 

[sampom]

for this is now that we young people wake up and send home the old!!

Here we go.

He's the one over 40 I am everywhere and more than plowing cheerful substances and playing with fresh meat and stealing money I am not seeing. .

And still... look that we are in the flower of the years, the period of life in which you give the best.. in all fields (and I will not be here to make examples :biggrin.

What would you like, to withdraw in good order?
then do it directly that you kill us all.. then you arrange though:biggrin:

greetings
Marco:smile:

p.s. and maybe you could retire past 40

 

[snaroz]

I say mine:

In my opinion, the demonstrations serve a lot in practice, just think about what is behind a fem software, or you can't have an approach in the study and analysis of vibrations without a solid theory behind (and trust that in the field of vibrations only "elected few" know the subject). the problem is that demonstrations must serve to far capire il problema that it is dealing, so know him e master it.

the problem is when professors believe that learning by heart a demonstration is synonymous with having it happen.

I, as Snaroz says (super quoton on what he wrote), I had colleagues who when I asked him:
"Why does the demonstration do that at this point? "
they answered me:
"you learn it by heart and fool it!"

according to me, and precise I'm sorry., the examination would be more constructive if the prof asked things like:"What would happen if this was not verified"Oppure:
"because these values are assigned to the constant k (generic)
and many other questions aimed at verifying the concept and essence of demonstration, rather than "poetry".

I unfortunately see it so because I am "materialist".

quote of the "memorandum of the engineer"the engineer must provide a solution, a number. If this number came to him in a dream or is the result of a series of endless studies it does not give a damn to anyone. Perhaps it is better if he comes to dream because it would be cheaper.

Finally I add that the word engineer is the one who has "ingence" not the one who asks him why the bulb emits light explains the concept of electromagnetic wave.
the engineer must make few words and many facts.

the rest is the task of mathematicians

Good. The fact is that for the mathematicians having understood something means having understood the demonstration of that thing. In my opinion, however, understanding one thing means understanding its deep meaning, and demonstration does not allow me to do this. The concept is that mathematical demonstrations ensure that what you're saying has a logical foundation, it's right, but they don't make sure you understand that well. So a professor cannot assess whether a student has understood something by asking him to demonstrate that. There are other ways to assess whether one has understood a concept, and asking for demonstration is not a way. useless to say that it is impossible to make a mathematical understand these things. for them mathematics is the point of arrival, for us engineers, of departure.

 

[Vortexsheet]

I take advantage of the discussion
I am in the second year of mechanical engineering, which I chose especially for my passion for mathematics; However I did not choose mathematics for the possibilities of work that did not convince me.
today I have many doubts and some disappointment from my faculty; you belong to some exam I feel unsatisfied. For example, I find the science examination of constructions - which I am preparing - extremely boring and uninteresting, in the end it is reduced all to apply a procedure already studied and of yours you put nothing on it. I highly appreciated the fluidodynamic examination, but then thinking about it is a set of demonstrations, as a manual we say about fluid behavior; Nice but bo, stays there, there's nothing that fascinates me.
instead I found very interesting rational mechanics, a rigorous course,
in which you learn not only notions but learn to reason, starting from definitions
to describe mechanical problems using geometry and analysis; what I mean is that it seems to come almost from itself, of course reasoning,
problems can be solved even without having done such a thing before.
I am afraid that the next exams will be more and more similar to construction science -procedures to learn and calculations- and less to rational mechanics.
If I had to go and do a little rewarding repetitive work, I would have done a hole in the water; I hate things made by heart.
among other things at least for my experience I am not so happy to enter the class of engineers, because I see my classmates often learn without understanding; those faces when you ask him something like the other user says, yet they pass the exams anyway.
but I say it's worth it?Continuing on this street when you ask yourself what you do here, maybe one day get in front of those who have learned everything by heart.. What do you say? Are these my doubts normal?
Thank you, it was also a rash for me.

 

[peloritano]

I take advantage of the discussion
I am in the second year of mechanical engineering, which I chose especially for my passion for mathematics; However I did not choose mathematics for the possibilities of work that did not convince me.
today I have many doubts and some disappointment from my faculty; you belong to some exam I feel unsatisfied. For example, I find the science examination of constructions - which I am preparing - extremely boring and uninteresting, in the end it is reduced all to apply a procedure already studied and of yours you put nothing on it. I highly appreciated the fluidodynamic examination, but then thinking about it is a set of demonstrations, as a manual we say about fluid behavior; Nice but bo, stays there, there's nothing that fascinates me.
instead I found very interesting rational mechanics, a rigorous course,
in which you learn not only notions but learn to reason, starting from definitions
to describe mechanical problems using geometry and analysis; what I mean is that it seems to come almost from itself, of course reasoning,
problems can be solved even without having done such a thing before.
I am afraid that the next exams will be more and more similar to construction science -procedures to learn and calculations- and less to rational mechanics.
If I had to go and do a little rewarding repetitive work, I would have done a hole in the water; I hate things made by heart.
among other things at least for my experience I am not so happy to enter the class of engineers, because I see my classmates often learn without understanding; those faces when you ask him something like the other user says, yet they pass the exams anyway.
but I say it's worth it?Continuing on this street when you ask yourself what you do here, maybe one day get in front of those who have learned everything by heart.. What do you say? Are these my doubts normal?
Thank you, it was also a rash for me.

Have you ever thought about writing to veterinary?? ? ?

 

[Tequila]

Have you ever thought about writing to veterinary?? ? ?

or to medicine, with the following specialization gynecology:biggrin:

 

[IB-Motorsport]

made and sweated. Unfortunately the application really practical I have not yet seen it transmitted by teachers to students. to get to be what I am had to climb alone with nails and teeth, otherwise I would be like most of my unprofessionally motivated colleagues (and I translated it eulcorately).

the head has to be beaten much more than the university proposes, otherwise you spend all your life doing the job of Chancellor not of Engineer and to get to a minimum of professional experience it takes 20 years when 5 would be enough to divorers to know.

quoto and Straquoto at 1000x1000...

the two-year engineering is too mathematical-theoretical selects only great "mathematics" ... while the best technicians are lost on the road...
It should be the opposite as it happens in the Anglo-Saxon countries ... the engineer and firstly a technician using mathematical tools ... not uin researcher of mathematical physics applied to engineering!

 

[BenedettiL]

quoto and Straquoto at 1000x1000...

the two-year engineering is too mathematical-theoretical selects only great "mathematics" ... while the best technicians are lost on the road...
It should be the opposite as it happens in the Anglo-Saxon countries ... the engineer and firstly a technician using mathematical tools ... not uin researcher of mathematical physics applied to engineering!

the only thing that distinguishes an engineer from a technician who made itis in a deep way is the mathematical base given by analysis 1- 2 rational mechanics etc...

 

[IB-Motorsport]

I'm not saying that there should be those subjects... I'm just saying that at the two-year engineering there is an exaggerated selection on those subjects ... and that they are too pushed ... I have analyzed with professors of the faculty of mathematics and physics with the physicists of the faculty of physics... while in Anglo-Saxon schools they are made by engineers... then let's not complain if an Italian graduate goes to 28,29 years ... compared with the 23 of an English or an Englishman. on the practical side then I found myself working with English, Germans and Americans who had nothing to envy to an Italian graduate ...and maybe they had a much higher practical preparation ... but there were people who at 25,26 American years had already half mortgage paid and I at 32 had just begun to prey two money!!!

 

[maxopus]

but go the dai (it would say the sympathizer), from how told it seems that to engineering you study quantum mechanics from morning to night.
an engineer is an engineer, not a mechanical expert or a geometra (as unfortunately happens).
as well as a graduate in economics should not make the accountant (as unfortunately happens).

an engineer must apply mathematics daily and we do not talk about tabelline or 4 operations.

then we all know that a part of what we study will not be almost ever used, but this does not mean that those subjects do not serve.

that the Italian faculties are more addressed to the theoretical subjects than to the business formation is a fact.
But it's not even possible that the university should teach you how to work.
as I'm afraid of the quiz test system.
I have to graduate a professional and a future engineer, doctor, lawyer, architect... do I do the quiz?
I'm sorry, but I'm gonna make him a bunch like this and who's good survives, otherwise at home.

instead we give the degrees to people who does not distinguish a conjunction or a preposition from a verb.

I'm sorry, but the university isn't for everyone, if you're able to go on, otherwise go to work.
with the fact that instead the university must bring back the accounts ... then you have to bake graduates, otherwise people do not enroll and therefore money there are no.
Italian universities have had the huge damage of having multiplied as the corkscrews (with an indecent average quality) and of having to be like the companies, they must have the managers (thing crazy).

Go study and don't break your palms, because life will give you so many of those dicks that half would be enough to break a bull.

 

[IB-Motorsport]

but go the dai (it would say the sympathizer), from how told it seems that to engineering you study quantum mechanics from morning to night.
an engineer is an engineer, not a mechanical expert or a geometra (as unfortunately happens).
as well as a graduate in economics should not make the accountant (as unfortunately happens).

an engineer must apply mathematics daily and we do not talk about tabelline or 4 operations.

then we all know that a part of what we study will not be almost ever used, but this does not mean that those subjects do not serve.

that the Italian faculties are more addressed to the theoretical subjects than to the business formation is a fact.
But it's not even possible that the university should teach you how to work.
as I'm afraid of the quiz test system.
I have to graduate a professional and a future engineer, doctor, lawyer, architect... do I do the quiz?
I'm sorry, but I'm gonna make him a bunch like this and who's good survives, otherwise at home.

instead we give the degrees to people who does not distinguish a conjunction or a preposition from a verb.

I'm sorry, but the university isn't for everyone, if you're able to go on, otherwise go to work.
with the fact that instead the university must bring back the accounts ... then you have to bake graduates, otherwise people do not enroll and therefore money there are no.
Italian universities have had the huge damage of having multiplied as the corkscrews (with an indecent average quality) and of having to be like the companies, they must have the managers (thing crazy).

Go study and don't break your palms, because life will give you so many of those dicks that half would be enough to break a bull.

But that's not the point!
I'm almost 40 years old and I've been working on it... I've done 30exams without taking classes... and I've taken dicks at university and life...

but what I want to say about engineering and that in Italy it is deeply to be reviewed from the perspective of the study plans ... I could go back ... I would be enrolled in graz in austria... since it would not even be far away!

then on the multiplication of the faculties are partially disagreed ... in Veneto the faculty of engineering there is only to padova ... and is also expired and poor ... to a student in the region of verona, treviso ... belluno or of the low polesine ... is forced to make kilometers with unreliable public transport or to disperse crazy figures of rent (often in black) to the padovani ... if they had done as emilia ...do. there is in bologna Ferrara modena cesena forli parma ... it would have been better ... more to measure student ... or not? ... more competitive ... in fact the graduates of bologna and modena in mechanical ing. are currently the most quoted!
also in friuli that is also small .. the faculty is to hearing, pordenone and try ... in Veneto only to padova ... where they were to create it to mestre (univ. of venezia) ... with the industrial pole that had ... in the years '90 ... but the immbiliary casta padovana does not touch! !

pluralism = competition = quality ...

 

[Ing Italy]

Hunter, do you want to know what the real juice of the speech is? I'll tell you right away. in engineering analysis courses professors justify each statement with demonstrations, without focusing on practical or graphic issues, as for them to express a word concept is idiocy. Now, students are divided into two groups. There are those who learn everything that the prof says in lesson, and then "return it in the face" to the oral by memory, and there are those who, like me, refuse to demonstrate through absurd arguments every bullshit, and instead try to prove it, not in a rigorous way, framing the question graphically. What do you think is more? Many times I see people who know all the theorems and demonstrations, and then if you ask him why that happens or why the other one looks with a strange face. Of course, the first are what passes the exam with the highest vote, while the second are those that pass with the lowest vote. We should reform the university, and let the mathematicians teach future mathematicians, and not future engineers. I love math, but these things just don't go down.

hi!I also frequent engineering (I have to start the third) and I practically always took the maximum of the votes.I don't really agree with you, I explain myself:I also studied the subjects that you say a little space for the theoretical testardaggine of the various professors of mathematics (1-2,algebra and geometry,statistica) and above all I really did punch with the fundamentals... In addition the doversele learn is also an exercise of logic not indifferent that certainly does not spoil, it is obvious that perhaps the manifest work utility will not be there but will probably help you to have a logical reasoning, sequential in facing what will be present before, so in this sense I see the demonstrations as an effective m mental training. will not seem true to you told by an engineering student but I think it has been fundamental philosophy . They are all logical passages that do not really have to do with engineering, but that have helped me a lot as a mindset, in good luck for the rest.

 

[Ing Italy]

I'm sorry, but I'm gonna make him a bunch like this and who's good survives, otherwise at home.

instead we give the degrees to people who does not distinguish a conjunction or a preposition from a verb.

I'm sorry, but the university isn't for everyone, if you're able to go on, otherwise go to work.
with the fact that instead the university must bring back the accounts ... then you have to bake graduates, otherwise people do not enroll and therefore money there are no.
Italian universities have had the huge damage of having multiplied as the corkscrews (with an indecent average quality) and of having to be like the companies, they must have the managers (thing crazy).
.

I agree with you, and I would like to emphasize one thing: the most hateful feature of anyone I know who does engineering is that it is a heavy person...all say "I do engineering" "I study from morning to evening" "you do science of snacks" etc...this is synonymous with poor intelligence and deep arrogance...you know what I think instead?I think if I had to do engineering to pass the tests we say until take from 18 to 25 very likely they would do even 2 years in 1... ..so the real difference is made out there,when you go to work in the company,when you are the last arrived and you are worse than the house dog,when the chatter is zero...I try a little the votes count and maybe they should count a little more but it is not sure to the university that you can be sure to be good or bad engineers.detto this who knows why people wonder about the fact that I always go out the evening .simplely because we are too heavy, in everything we do and we say.

 

[Vortexsheet]

or to medicine, with the following specialization gynecology:biggrin:

ah ah sympathies.. I think these are your dreams...-
But what I'm telling you, then they send you to do the losers, I believe.
no one compels you to study mathematics, if you don't want to do anything else:
You could always be very good experts.
I think of mathematics in engineering there is too little,
Sometimes courses need notions that have not yet been given,
to me it happened with the transformation of laplace in electrotechnical,
the theory of partial derivative equations and more.
if you like to learn a list, if you like names, do law or ancient letters
-Touch that even in ancient letters one has to reason-
you would be good lawyers

 

[Ste_d]

I think if I had to do engineering to pass the exams let's say until we take from 18 to 25 most likely they would even do 2 years in 1...you won't tell me that passing exams is difficult, you can be a difficult couple (talk talk, specialism I don't know) but doing engineering to pass the exams is a nice pacchia (I don't dare think from other side then). . .

Bah from me is not exactly what you say... What university are you going to? I have really but really good friends and some exams the first time they have rejected them soundly. . 2 years in 1?! but not even if you are aware of all 18 you do it! who knows why people who succeed in graduating in time is 3% of subscribers and the average (pisa) for three-year degree is 5-6 years. ok many if they take it comfortable but there are also objective difficulties.
However, I also believe that nowadays there is too much philosophic and little practicality in the two years. you are required too advanced mathematical skills compared to what you actually serve operationally in subsequent courses (and I would have to do countless examples).
knowing how to remember formulas and/or demonstrations then is how much more ignoble there is... like those pros who do not even give you a form. Have the designer and engineer's manuals written them for sports or even graduates are all dumb? !
then explain to me the nexus: you don't know the math-> go do the perit
Do engineers have to be good at developing with taylor or laplace to inverosimile? Do they have to be good at hand-made complicated integrals or solve differential equations? the least bad world has gone on and now we have software that do this dirty work.
the task of a designer engineer is much more and unfortunately one learns only by working and with years of experience on the field.

ps: I absolutely agree on the fact of the quiz... in engineering problems solve with paper, pen and calculator by making steps and discussing results. We're not driving. . .

 

[Ing Italy]

Bah from me is not exactly what you say... What university are you going to? .

I in bologna, it can also be that your faculty is more difficult, not having experiences about it I don't know, but studying often on slides of various athenesties like polymi polito trieste brands I see how they are more or less the same things,I've never seen a substantial difference for the three-year-old

 

[peloritano]

ah ah sympathies.. I think these are your dreams...-
But what I'm telling you, then they send you to do the losers, I believe.
no one compels you to study mathematics, if you don't want to do anything else:
You could always be very good experts.
I think of mathematics in engineering there is too little,
Sometimes courses need notions that have not yet been given,
to me it happened with the transformation of laplace in electrotechnical,
the theory of partial derivative equations and more.
if you like to learn a list, if you like names, do law or ancient letters
-Touch that even in ancient letters one has to reason-
you would be good lawyers

for the moment I answer you....
as many have written the school in general and the university in particular gives you the basis to develop any subject you want.... as many have written does not teach you anything in particular. . I was in the beginning a bit like that.... I did internal combustion engines and I thought that in this matter I would have had to deal with biella pistons and who knows what else (the engines have always been my passion)... nothing of all that....... But I've already figured out what school and study is.... basics and knowledge. It's up to you to apply them... already in high school I studied electrotechnics that I applied immadiously to the electric circuits of motorcycles.... I studied mathematics at geometry and applied them immediately to an old graphic software with which it was drawn (the first computer was a commodore64 where for graphics it was necessary to draw pixels for pixels and therefore cabbage as they served the basics studied at school).... same thing at university... never explained anything in particular but all in general. It was me from time to time to use the notions in the field that most interested me.. . .
someone wrote that he would want to study elsewhere.. in austria or who knows where... maybe they'll do something specific... like in the most famous American universities... I don't feel any less than them.... indeed I feel tens of times greater than them.... a degree in mechanical engineering could go with the due training to the design of electrical installations to the design of building structures to the porgettation of solar plants to the use of various types of materials etc. etc. These are our universities....
Of course, now we're in a bad time, as my friend says, we're eating all the inheritance that they left us... I mean by that the fact that as you see, we are governed by ignorant people. . people who with the media license allow themselves to put their hands on school reform... completely incompetent.... just think a few years back... We have been considered technologically advanced while now our universities are only ignorant (I can assure you that I have fellow engineers who can't make one or the glass... but how do you propose engineering tests to quiz????? ....mha!!!! ! ! ! ! . .


After that, I conclude that if you start saying that this matter is boring, that other sense is clear, the other one still bothers you, well, then you're not going to be wrong? ? ?

At engineering school, you're gonna have to study very complicated notions. . sometimes destroyed... but they need.. to train the mind to reason. . serve to develop memory... Maybe some of you won't need it anymore, but a lot of others will, and I assure you for personal experience. . .

at the bottom of a minimum of difficulty must be there otherwise we would be all engineers