tariff for mechanical designer

[Lettore espatriato]

Good morning.
When I talk about 2400 hours, I'm talking about the fact that professionals, with whom I worked, did not compare with the employee to establish how many hours to do this or that month. They simply did a job in the shortest possible time (intensive as a delivery deadline) and then switch to the next one, obviously trying to leave less time between one and the other (which I imagine is what every free professional does). The more hours you do, and besides earning more, the more hours you're gonna spend your money.
But, in my view, what you're losing sight of is that what really affects the hourly cost is the shopping choices. and I don't talk about the cad or hardware that could also be imposed or supplied by the customer.
I'm talking about other expenses.
we assume that we have also done "only" the 1700 hours/year.
Let's assume we have to buy the car with which to work and bring the family around.
There are at least two possible choices: one (that which, for example, has praised hunter) to take a new category car (but could have been half-yearly for example) , which does not cost a heritage, which consumes as little as possible, and keep it for at least 6 years.
If, on the other hand, it has spent 15000 euros, it means that, on its hourly cost, spread over 6 years, the car will affect approximately 1.5 euros/hour.
the other choice, although respectable (and view to do so many free professionals), is: for n reasons, the choice of the machine that I will use is the German sw 4wd, 250 cv , etc.. which costs 50000 euros. and, of course, every three years changes it because it's not safe anymore, etc... getting a little, that's 10000 euros, because it's 200000 km, nobody wants it.
to this second free professional, only the cost of the machine, will affect ' 40000 euros (50000 less the 10000 obtained) , and, "spalmati" on 3 years, will be , approximately 7.5 euros/hour.
a difference of 6 euro/hour, without even having talked about home, telephone, office, chairs, magazines, courses, furniture, schools for children, boat, glider, holidays, etc...
then the software and the hardware . for which:
1) most times the choice of one or another is not a free choice, but an imposition of the market (by sector) or the customer.
2) Considering amortization of 3 years, and a purchase cost of 10000 euros + hardware 5000 + software fee/assistance 2500, the incidence comes to be 3.5 euros per hour.
at the end of the accounts, for one of the two professionals, it will be possible to make 30 euros / hour and earn decently. for the other, it will be impossible to do less than 70 euros per hour and, at the time when he loses a contract because another offered 55 euros per hour, then if he takes it with taxes, with the employees, with the unfair competitors, with the software house, with the world.

 

[Er Presidente]

I thought I realized that you wanted to make a comparison with employee work, of the series "under tot turnover I should close shop and go to salary", in this case the comparison at the same time seems to me necessary.
If we have to keep the 2400's fine, but we have to deal with the 2400's employees otherwise we might be wrong.

 

[ceschi1959]

Good morning.
When I talk about 2400 hours, I'm talking about the fact that professionals, with whom I worked, did not compare with the employee to establish how many hours to do this or that month. They simply did a job in the shortest possible time (intensive as a delivery deadline) and then switch to the next one, obviously trying to leave less time between one and the other (which I imagine is what every free professional does). The more hours you do, and besides earning more, the more hours you're gonna spend your money.

Maybe so: suppose you have made a commitment with a customer to develop a product in two months, after working a month and a half and planning another job with another customer immediately after, the first customer calls you and tells you that the patent manager realized that one of the guidelines they had asked you to follow, you can no longer follow. I'll see you in two weeks to start again, etc., you'll be there for two weeks with the prospect that you will have to follow two equally demanding jobs. This is not about the hourly price because I, for example, have always worked as a consuntivo and have always been paid to the maximum in sixty days (I think a rarity in Italy). But in the end you put us back two weeks of work that if you like then you will recover in part working even at night!

we assume that we have also done "only" the 1700 hours/year.
Let's assume we have to buy the car with which to work and bring the family around.
There are at least two possible choices: one (that which, for example, has praised hunter) to take a new category car (but could have been half-yearly for example) , which does not cost a heritage, which consumes as little as possible, and keep it for at least 6 years.
If, on the other hand, it has spent 15000 euros, it means that, on its hourly cost, spread over 6 years, the car will affect approximately 1.5 euros/hour.

apart from that for example my nx license costs almost 30k with maintenance fee around 5k/year and therefore cad and proper hw are not marginal, the car you mortgage (like the one I have from 18k ) does not cost you 1.5€/hour but much more because despite you use it exclusively for work you can download only 20% VAT excluded and up to a certain ceiling, on the rest there are fees! and what you did not understand in my previous post, if I could fully download the expenses incurred to produce income, then the net would actually be net.

the other choice, although respectable (and view to do so many free professionals), is: for n reasons, the choice of the machine that I will use is the German sw 4wd, 250 cv , etc.. which costs 50000 euros. and, of course, every three years changes it because it's not safe anymore, etc... getting a little, that's 10000 euros, because it's 200000 km, nobody wants it. .

c@@zzi them, do you know how many I have seen from the accountant to make cards for a funding from 70-80k to take the newly opened pig?

to this second free professional, only the cost of the machine, will affect ' 40000 euros (50000 less the 10000 obtained) , and, "spalmati" on 3 years, will be , approximately 7.5 euros/hour.
a difference of 6 euro/hour, without even having talked about home, telephone, office, chairs, magazines, courses, furniture, schools for children, boat, glider, holidays, etc....

ric@zzi loro, do not understand the link between business activities and home school chairs for children.

then the software and the hardware . for which:
1) most times the choice of one or another is not a free choice, but an imposition of the market (by sector) or the customer.
2) Considering amortization of 3 years, and a purchase cost of 10000 euros + hardware 5000 + software fee/assistance 2500, the incidence comes to be 3.5 euros per hour.

My figures are different and reported above. It is also a matter of competition: I have and I can use a tool that you don't have and you can't use, for that I can ask twice as much about you.

 

[cacciatorino]

the car I think we must not put it among the typical costs of the free profession, because if you have to pay also the employee who does not download anything, we should consider only the cost of the km path (including amortization) to go to a customer and return to the office, from which the norm that allows to download only a certain percentage of these costs.

 

[re_solidworks]

the car I think we must not put it among the typical costs of the free profession, because if you have to pay also the employee who does not download anything, we should consider only the cost of the km path (including amortization) to go to a customer and return to the office, from which the norm that allows to download only a certain percentage of these costs.

I agree. I took it privately and only when I use it for the company I have a refund based on the actual km routes. for what you download is not worth...

 

[numero1]

It's obvious you don't understand what I'm talking about.

frankly this does not seem to me the way of redressing; But if the problem was then written as a hunter down here,

in 2014 I did 1780 hours of work (*), according to the excel sheet on which I keep the notes, this year so far are to 1750. Maybe I forgot to mark something, but I don't think I've lost time.

* are the hours invoiced, while I have not indicated the hours spent in the office to pass the rag, update drivers, etc.

In fact...
I also meant those, when I had the piva in the middle of the 80s, less than 2,000 hours (invoice) I feel like I never had them......
The point is, they paid you very little by hour, just that.
I'm not a superhero, I don't own (or possessed) extraordinary resistance skills, but 1800 hours? ?
keep playing me strange......... .

@maxopus
If the problem isn't the one described as a hunter, can you please explain what you were talking about?

 

[numero1]

The car part and more seems to me to be a bit ot as you write baskets, but when you write:

Maybe so: suppose you have made a commitment with a customer to develop a product in two months, after working a month and a half and planning another job with another customer immediately after, the first customer calls you and tells you that the patent manager realized that one of the guidelines they had asked you to follow, you can no longer follow. I'll see you in two weeks to start again, etc., you'll be there for two weeks with the prospect that you will have to follow two equally demanding jobs. This is not about the hourly price because I, for example, have always worked as a consuntivo and have always been paid to the maximum in sixty days (I think a rarity in Italy). But in the end you put us back two weeks of work that if you like then you will recover in part working even at night!

Right, I agree, it's a situation that's happened to me more than once.

 

[Er Presidente]

frankly this does not seem to me the way of redressing; But if the problem was then written as a hunter down here,



In fact...
I also meant those, when I had the piva in the middle of the 80s, less than 2,000 hours (invoice) I feel like I never had them......
The point is, they paid you very little by hour, just that.
I'm not a superhero, I don't own (or possessed) extraordinary resistance skills, but 1800 hours? ?
keep playing me strange......... .

@maxopus
If the problem isn't the one described as a hunter, can you please explain what you were talking about?

It seems to me that the subject has been thoroughly investigated. try to read the previous posts, following what you quote, related to the problem of the annual mountain hours and see if there is anything else to clarify.

 

[cacciatorino]

It seems to me that the subject has been thoroughly investigated. try to read the previous posts, following what you quote, related to the problem of the annual mountain hours and see if there is anything else to clarify.

I was thinking that if instead of doing 8000 km on the bike I had spent those 300 hours in front of the computer then on the 2000s and I would pass there, with the contraindication of the panza obviously:wink:

 

[numero1]

I was thinking that if instead of doing 8000 km on the bike I had spent those 300 hours in front of the computer then on the 2000s and I would pass there, with the contraindication of the panza obviously:wink:

I haven't played sports in my life, I've always eaten like a pig and... I'm always skinny; go well skinny no, at least not anymore.
:tongue:

 

[numero1]

It seems to me that the subject has been thoroughly investigated. try to read the previous posts, following what you quote, related to the problem of the annual mountain hours and see if there is anything else to clarify.

already done, and those 1700/1800 hours I keep finding them strange.......
but, as I have already said, each of us can fully tell their own experiences, and their memories.
In any case, don't worry, I have neurons that go to pieces and that I don't understand and, since no one answered me, I take the trouble from this 3ad.
to resent us.

 

[Matteo]

I have always been in p.iva (just finished studying I opened the studio, after 1 year of apprenticeship) and if I arrive to bill 1000-1500h/year is already a great result. does not mean to work 1000-1500h/year, because the hours (500-1000) are excluded, dedicated to: technical/normative updates/software, bureaucracy (which I would like to invoice in the thief state), marketing, demonstration activities, generic research (cfd lately), ...

 

[Er Presidente]

already done, and those 1700/1800 hours I keep finding them strange.......

To say that I'm "strange" is not very useful to the discussion, maybe by argumenting better you could be able to clarify.

 

[Lettore espatriato]

Good evening,
Since I seem to be almost the only one who thinks that doing free professional you still gain well, I try to
answer to all those who, instead, are convinced that doing free professional is a "mission":

First of all, a premise at this point. what free professional are we talking about? why an account is talking about a
free professional who does consulting work with customers. another is talking about a free professional with their own "mini study", another is the free established professional, another case are the free associate professionals
or with 1/plus employees and relative corporate headquarters.
comparing the individual professional with mini companies or real companies makes no sense. at least as far as the question from which the whole post had started.
for what was originally written, the figure seems to me a way between the consultant to clients or the "mini" free professional.
therefore, not one/two/three/four employees.
free professional, a cad, a pc, a mini studio (which can be for the beginning also a room of your own home as doctors do at 80€/10min ...), where to welcome customers and a car to go around to bring and take the jobs. Stop.

... hours are excluded (500-1000) dedicated to: technical/normative updates/software, bureaucracy
(which I would like to invoice to the thief state), marketing, demonstration activities, generic research (cfd lately), ...

Sorry. 500-1000 hours for what? You could tell me how much time you lost to make invoices, to pay f24, taxes, VAT, bank, and accountant doing all the accounts for you? I was about 2 hours a month, 24 hours a year .... internet power.
the rest goes at your discretion. If, for example, you spend 500 hours a year, i.e. a 20-25% (or more, to hear you) of your useful time, to look for customers, excuse but what have you opened a game iva by engineer designer to do? do the software representative or office articles.:_)))

To say that I'm "strange" is not very useful to the discussion, maybe by argumenting better you could be able to clarify.

for my experience and free professionals with whom I worked, the least to consider to be able to open a game iva is to consider working effectively at least 8 hours a day for 5 days a week, for 49-50 weeks a year.
if you make commissions during the day, go to the customer or install the patch, recover at night, on Saturday, in the early morning . are still 2000 hours.

I thought I realized that you wanted to make a comparison with employee work, of the series "under tot turnover I should close shop and go to salary", in this case the comparison at the same time seems to me necessary.
If we have to keep the 2400's fine, but we have to deal with the 2400's employees otherwise we might be wrong.

No. is not correct. employees have time limits and overtime that free professionals do not have. the professional can, wanting, work the same time as the employee (or not). the employee cannot exceed a number of monthly hours of extraordinary, hours on the same day, of consecutive days of work. the free professional yes. if you want.

Why would he want it? for reasons. because it has two works in parallel. because, as was said in baskets1959, a customer chose to start from scratch. because that year wants to buy the new bike, the bigger house, etc...
Your choice. choice that the employee cannot make. In fact, especially in management and framework, the extraordinary is not even paid and you are available to the company also Saturday and Sunday.

...
apart from that for example my nx license costs almost 30k with maintenance fee around 5k/year and therefore cad and proper hw are not marginal, the car you mortgage (like the one I have from 18k ) does not cost you 1.5€/hour but much more because despite you use it exclusively for work you can download only 20% VAT excluded and up to a certain ceiling, on the rest there are fees! and what you did not understand in my previous post, if I could fully download the expenses incurred to produce income, then the net would actually be net.
My figures are different and reported above. It is also a matter of competition: I have and I can use a tool that you don't have and you can't use, for that I can ask twice as much about you.

apart from that:
1) the price list is one thing. the price on the road is another. ;-)
2) how many free individual professionals do you know in Italy that have licenses like yours or how the v5 category of equal level? that they are not illegal, software house teachers or resellers of the same, I know very few. Let us say that you count on the fingers of two/three hands? then, bring your case as an average example of how much could affect the hourly cost the purchase of a cad does not seem realistic.
3) in fact it seems to me that they pay you well. to have the nx license and to know how to use it well. But I think you're around 2000 hours of work.

... and what you did not understand in my previous post, if I could fully download the expenses incurred to produce income, then the net would actually be net.
....

No no. I got it.
but you, I think, have not understood the concept of instrumental good. Depending on the type of game you have, instrumental goods are defined that are indispensable for your profession and that you can deduct 100%. if you are designer/designer cad your instrumental assets will be the software and the pc. point.
if you make the trade representative will be the machine and relative costs + the dresser. And so on.
then there are partially deductible costs. Why partially?
for two reasons:
1) are not strictly indispensable to your profession. otherwise we should also consider eating for all.
If you have the basic customer 100 km away, it is your choice to use the car and go there every day or every week and do not take home nearby.
If I, from England, decided to work with some Italian customer, it is not that the English fisco refunds my air tickets to go every week in Italy. At least, not for a free professional.
Unfortunately, because of someone, there is no credit for anyone. What you could once deduct at 40%, today is only more than 20%, maybe even tomorrow. Why?

I'll give you an example: fuel cards. I have always been ligio and even more in stamping fuel cards. stamped only and only when I went around for work, many times I made oil to self service that does not release anything.
However, when you see that you have to insist on the distributor's agent because it doesn't fill the fuel card with 9 "empty" stamps, on the contrary, you almost have to piss off to make it stand out.... then you understand that they are more thieves than the honest. but not "the state" . probably those "citizens" that the state composes it.

the car I think we must not put it between the typical costs of the free profession, because if you have to pay the employee who does not download anything, we should consider only the cost of the km path (including amortization)

If the goal is to calculate what the theoretical minimum time cost can be to propose to a hypothetical customer, you must include all the costs that a free professional has. that, if framed as explained at the start, it is not a company where x enters and must exit x+tot.
because the free professional is half between a legal person as a company (because he has p.iva and some professional costs) but he is also a natural person because he has his personal taxes, his personal expenses, etc.
and, as I repeat, throughout this the cad and its hardware are a minimum part. while the machine or house or office can be an important part of such value.

 

[cacciatorino]

and, as I repeat, throughout this the cad and its hardware are a minimum part. while the machine or house or office can be an important part of such value.

I recently bought pc and license, we count 7500 cad and 1500 pc. if we ammortize it in three years (as for example requires tax administration) make 3000 euro/year, which then will be from 1.5 to 3 euro/h depending on how many hours we will work, admitted to always work with the same cad for all customers, which almost never happens unfortunately. In fact, it often happens that you have to have more than one to please several customers, to add the cost of assistance if you keep them updated: If you're a loser you have to pay 1500 for the solidworks upgrade, 1500 for the solid edge and 1500 for that of clay, and then it's 4500 a year longer the amortization mentioned above.

But we have to say that thanks to these expenses we're going to save a little bit of taxes, and so it's not entirely "cuffs."

In short, the costs of professional instruments can vary greatly depending on specific situations.

 

[Lettore espatriato]

Hello hunter.
If you have three cads and, theoretically, you use them alone at 33% or around that percentage, I guess you've done your accounts and asked the
I'll take your software, but you'll turn me on the job.
I don't think anyone's opening the game and before
search for work, purchase three cad.
good day and good work.

 

[cacciatorino]

Hello hunter.
If you have three cads and, theoretically, you use them alone at 33% or around that percentage, I guess you've done your accounts and asked the
I'll take your software, but you'll turn me on the job.
I don't think anyone's opening the game and before
search for work, purchase three cad.
good day and good work.

It doesn't work like that, but so:

"to work for us you must have the same cad (and maybe the same pdm), if you have it we can evaluate the collaboration, otherwise you are discarded a priori. "

Otherwise they make another technical office that the cad has. I have never seen a minimum annual schedule at the contract level, nor for myself for other studies I know, if not one or two cases of which a colleague told me.

Basically, it's not like you buy a cad, and then you're willing to tell the potential client, but first, you're going to talk, and then if things get well if you take the cad hoping to call him a supplier. the soft you can buy it, or sometimes to start the customer lends it to you, or finally some software house started renting them for limited periods, solution to be considered before a future stabilization.

I, for example, with solidworks I took a decent trick because I used it very little while having bought cad+pdm, and instead cocreate opened an important road on a client other than that I bought it initially.

 

[ceschi1959]

what free professional are we talking about? why an account is talking about a
free professional who does consulting work with customers. another is talking about a free professional with their own "mini study", another is the free established professional, another case are the free associate professionals
or with 1/plus employees and relative corporate headquarters.

In my case I have been all these things in my 20 years of work: from partner and a design company with 7 designers to my dependencies (about 35,000 €/year to each to get out with their and especially with my work), to mini consultant to customers and so on.
the fact that you do not know the Italian reality and disconnected from some considerations you have made, I explain it to you with a simple example: I go to Milan for work, by train cost a/r 60 € completely downloadable, I go to Milan in the car the same amount of which I take in body 80% on which I also bake taxes!
to find me a state worthy of this name that is not thief as ours that behaves as in the proverb you mentioned, it is as if 'regardless' all Italians were considered mafiosi, I remind you, that in our legislative order there is what is defined objective responsibility, there is the presumption of innocence, except that in the fiscal field and this not because of certain rucksacks but of the broken pact between state and state.
second question: the license, the discounts arrive at 25-27% on the license and a little more than 10 for the maintenance fee, from 30k we pass to about 22k to which you have to add a year of maintenance 4k (this entirely downloadable for the months of competence). cash you have to add the entry for which you have to cum so about 32k plus the hardware and so on.
beyond the fact that it can be one of those that count on the fingers of two or three hands I think I am, perhaps, I would not be presumptuous, the point of arrival for someone: I'll do the price, I'll work on the assumption and pay me when I say.
different perhaps is the speech made by many, they are located in a competitive market (if you are okay so well otherwise at the door there is the row and so on).
another question which has not been properly underlined is as follows: How much do I have to ask at the time for... But what do you offer for that figure? what other hundred can offer?

 

[Lettore espatriato]

...
the fact that you do not know the Italian reality and disconnected from some considerations you have made, I explain it to you with a simple example: I go to Milan for work, by train cost a/r 60 € completely downloadable, I go to Milan in the car the same amount of which I take in body 80% on which I also bench the taxes!....

the fact that my accountant has not, in the past, ever asked for reimbursement for a railway ticket, does not mean that he does not know the Italian reality. look that you can have different opinions without having to, by force, diminish who is talking to you.
what I have so far only allowed myself to point out, in blessed solitude, is that, in Italy there are free professionals who work for 20-25-30 € / hour, who work honestly, pay taxes and live dignifiedly (as could a worker from any 1000€/month) while, for someone else, including you, this is not possible.
I tried what it means not to arrive at the end of the month because my owner, instead of paying my salary and those who worked with me, bought the car or the room to the son, so, for me, to have 1000€ per month clean to spend is manna from the sky.
So if I get 2000 or 3000, net, it seems at least honest to admit that, yes, I can "survive".
I'll be "Chinese," I'll be "Slovak."
but I don't know the Italian reality, the one... I've been expat for a while, not for 20 years.

 

[TECNOMODEL]

I take this old post among the many who face the topic because it is the one in which it was faced in the most in-depth mill.

I've been having to confront myself lately with realities that fight the price.
ergo, my request of 25-30 €/hour to design robotic and manual welding equipment is considered exosa.
argumentation is usually "others ask for 18 €/hour".
I also heard of people taking 12 €/hour for table harvests, all regularly turnover.
Now I wonder, but are we really at these levels? and, above all, how does one take those figures and work in order?

about your experiences? How is the current situation?