photovoltaic systems new provisions

[lattu]

Good morning to all,
decree law nr 17 of 2022 and subsequent conversions, has made several modifications in the field of photovoltaics but I do not find an updated technician on this aspect.
for me the text on the official gazette is incomprehensible, I would only be interested in the part that concerns the domestic photovoltaic systems, if there are any indications to the installation in the historical center and how simplified the procedures of authorization.
thanks to who will help me

 

[TETRASTORE]

is a matter, with its updates, that every good geometra should know; seven years ago, for the installation of photovoltaic on the roof, I turned to one of them for the whole part of permits and authorizations including that landscape, indispensable as my home is located within a regional park.

before the recent decree that you mentioned, it was necessary to request permissions and permits (for example ski) to the municipality where the property is located, in addition to subjecting to limitations such as panels with the same orientation and inclination of the roof ground and not exceeding the encumbrance of the same, etc.
Now, with the recent energy decree, the installation of photovoltaic panels on the roof of the buildings becomes ordinary maintenance intervention by eliminating a series of provisions on the mode of installation, no more need for authorizations or permits.to realize the new plants we use the single model simplified by telematic means.
for the installation of the photovoltaic in the historical center or places of interest landscape (for example parks, villages, etc.) remain in place limitations in landscape, for which a qualified technician (geometra) will have to provide all the documentation (project, planimetries, images, etc.) to be sent to the local superintendency to obtain the necessary authorization.

in the attached image I reported the difference of installation in the two possible cases:
a) photovoltaic system in an area not subject to constraints (possibility of application of a single inverter that commands all panels or mini inverters for each panel).
b) photovoltaic system in area subject to landscape constraints (possible only single inverter because the mini inverters applied below the panels increase the encumbrance in height which is likely to exceed the maximum encumbrance of the tiles and in this area is generally not allowed).

 

[lattu]

Sorry for waiting but I needed to read calmly.
Thank you very much, you were very clear.
I understand you're on the piece, what are you doing?

 

[TETRASTORE]

I take care of something else (product configurators and others), but it is an experience that I have lived on my skin and that I am studying to implement various alternative solutions in order to achieve the greatest possible autonomy from the energy point of view.

 

[PIETRO2002]

I take care of something else (product configurators and others), but it is an experience that I have lived on my skin and that I am studying to implement various alternative solutions in order to achieve the greatest possible autonomy from the energy point of view.

If you have space and possibilities, solar panels, accumulation batteries and a serious heat pump and you can give a hello to the putin gas! :

 

[TETRASTORE]

Unfortunately we are not yet: the photovoltaic panels in winter produce much less energy especially if the snow is stationed (15 cm on the panels can persist even 15-20 days resulting in production nothing) moreover the panels on the roof with inclination and fixed orientation have only a few hours a day (3-4) of maximum production.
the use of heat pumps (one for heating and one for the sanitary hot water) is often recommended as the best solution for a sensitive energy saving, but it is necessary to consider that their use requires an upgrade of the electrical system for which the 3 kw of photovoltaic installed on the roof is no longer sufficient but it is necessary to minimum double it, therefore also the relative system of accumulation (lithium battery) from 7-10 kw to have a more autonomy.
the average consumption indicated by the producers for a heat pump for heating (or cooling), is at 1200 - 1400 kw / year but it is necessary to take into account the difference of ambient temperature between various geographical areas; In my case being in a mountain resort with lower temperatures, consumption would be considerably higher, therefore only with photovoltaic panels could cover 50/60% of the annual energy requirement.
having currently the heating with wood fireplace (combustible pollutant that however will have to be abandoned, although for now in the mountain municipalities is admitted) the gas heating I disable it completely, so the hot water I get it from a 50 l electric boiler to low consumption and well insulated that, powered by the photovoltaic day, maintains a pleasant temperature of the water for more than 20 hours. in the near future I have in anticipation a 6 kw oriented island plant with accumulation, solar panels (for hot water) and the necessary surplus of electricity I will still have to withdraw it from the network because the storage systems are still very limited as capacity.
for the moment we do not talk about electric cars where the smallest needs 20-24 kw for which it would take a fv plant from at least 6 kw to charge it; The problem is that you should load it in the day just when you should use it.
I am afraid that we will certainly give a farewell to putin, but for a long time we will depend on fossil fuels to produce electricity whose consumption is increasing and renewable sources for now are not enough.

 

[PIETRO2002]

Unfortunately we are not yet: the photovoltaic panels in winter produce much less energy especially if the snow is stationed (15 cm on the panels can persist even 15-20 days resulting in production nothing) moreover the panels on the roof with inclination and fixed orientation have only a few hours a day (3-4) of maximum production.
the use of heat pumps (one for heating and one for the sanitary hot water) is often recommended as the best solution for a sensitive energy saving, but it is necessary to consider that their use requires an upgrade of the electrical system for which the 3 kw of photovoltaic installed on the roof is no longer sufficient but it is necessary to minimum double it, therefore also the relative system of accumulation (lithium battery) from 7-10 kw to have a more autonomy.
the average consumption indicated by the producers for a heat pump for heating (or cooling), is at 1200 - 1400 kw / year but it is necessary to take into account the difference of ambient temperature between various geographical areas; In my case being in a mountain resort with lower temperatures, consumption would be considerably higher, therefore only with photovoltaic panels could cover 50/60% of the annual energy requirement.
having currently the heating with wood fireplace (combustible pollutant that however will have to be abandoned, although for now in the mountain municipalities is admitted) the gas heating I disable it completely, so the hot water I get it from a 50 l electric boiler to low consumption and well insulated that, powered by the photovoltaic day, maintains a pleasant temperature of the water for more than 20 hours. in the near future I have in anticipation a 6 kw oriented island plant with accumulation, solar panels (for hot water) and the necessary surplus of electricity I will still have to withdraw it from the network because the storage systems are still very limited as capacity.
for the moment we do not talk about electric cars where the smallest needs 20-24 kw for which it would take a fv plant from at least 6 kw to charge it; The problem is that you should load it in the day just when you should use it.
I am afraid that we will certainly give a farewell to putin, but for a long time we will depend on fossil fuels to produce electricity whose consumption is increasing and renewable sources for now are not enough.

perfectly agree on what you wrote, having already eliminated the gas because you resort to the wood. logically to have efficiency with heat pump it is useful to have a house insulated, a floor plant that works at low temperatures. a good plant with heat pump, if well sized, serves both for heating and for sanitary water.

 

[TETRASTORE]

with regard to insulation today there are no problems as there are solutions that with a few centimeters of thickness allow results equal to insulation blocks for the coat from more than 10 cm. My perplexities are on the floor heating for which, in an existing property, interventions are necessary according to me devastating, just think of the screed that can increase the floor level even of more than 5 cm with everything that follows on the fixtures (e.g. doors), moreover the risk of a possible problem to the water line would require sensitive costs for the search of the fault and the subsequent demolition and reconstruction of part of the floor, apart of course, for plants on the upper floors it is necessary also a static verification for the greater additional weight determined by the concrete screed; I am very doubtful about this solution, unfortunately the heat pump is closely connected to it and I do not know how this road is going.

 

[PIETRO2002]

with regard to insulation today there are no problems as there are solutions that with a few centimeters of thickness allow results equal to insulation blocks for the coat from more than 10 cm. My perplexities are on the floor heating for which, in an existing property, interventions are necessary according to me devastating, just think of the screed that can increase the floor level even of more than 5 cm with everything that follows on the fixtures (e.g. doors), moreover the risk of a possible problem to the water line would require sensitive costs for the search of the fault and the subsequent demolition and reconstruction of part of the floor, apart of course, for plants on the upper floors it is necessary also a static verification for the greater additional weight determined by the concrete screed; I am very doubtful about this solution, unfortunately the heat pump is closely connected to it and I do not know how this road is going.

Yes, it would be very heavy and perhaps not feasible. but, documenting me a little, there are some radiators that have excellent yields even with a 50 ° c mandata temperature, the professional heat pumps have a good cop even at this temperature, logically the maximum yield you have on the 35 / 40 ° c, but if you can have a photovoltaic system of 9 kw, 6 kw for heating and 3 kw for the users it can work.
logically, not knowing the footage and location of your house, they are calculations thrown there.
6 electric kw with a cop= 3 give in theory 18 thermal kw.

 

[TETRASTORE]

excluding radiators that create a localized hot area, I am also evaluating hot air heating always using the heat pump; I saw an application in a house of 180 sq m (in my case 90 sq m) where I found a very comfortable temperature, unfortunately the system is gas powered. I would opt for the electric fv that feeds the heat pump integrating, when necessary (in the evening hours and in the case of bad weather), with the withdrawal from the net. This requires me to upgrade the photovoltaic that I am analyzing, but this solution can be easily realized and with lower installation costs than that of the floor heating resulting in insulation.
the fv system I can install it on a land in a dominant position that receives light from morning to dawn until about 16.00 (in winter), it is a question of evaluating the power to install (9 kw is a realistic hypothesis) and that advantage I would make the panels adjustable compared to the fixed ones.

 

[PIETRO2002]

excluding radiators that create a localized hot area, I am also evaluating hot air heating always using the heat pump; I saw an application in a house of 180 sq m (in my case 90 sq m) where I found a very comfortable temperature, unfortunately the system is gas powered. I would opt for the electric fv that feeds the heat pump integrating, when necessary (in the evening hours and in the case of bad weather), with the withdrawal from the net. This requires me to upgrade the photovoltaic that I am analyzing, but this solution can be easily realized and with lower installation costs than that of the floor heating resulting in insulation.
the fv system I can install it on a land in a dominant position that receives light from morning to dawn until about 16.00 (in winter), it is a question of evaluating the power to install (9 kw is a realistic hypothesis) and that advantage I would make the panels adjustable compared to the fixed ones.

in time, by curiosity, I had made a calculation of how much thermal power it served for my apartment, located in lombardia, 90 square meters and I had found 9.3 kw, from gas consumption detected the square account. I have a condensing boiler power 18 kw, logically over power, not having accumulations, it serves to have hot water instantly. the problem with the heat pump does not exist as it is of obligation to have a accumulator sized according to the family needs. therefore in theory suppose to have a heat pump with a cup = 2.8, the necessary electrical power would be 9.3 / 2.8 = 3.3 kw, spannometric calculation but I think it does not differ much from reality! :
with 6 kw minimum on the roof and a nice tesla buildup you could do without unshaking too much enel!

 

[TETRASTORE]

therefore in theory suppose to have a heat pump with a cup = 2.8, the necessary electrical power would be 9.3 / 2.8 = 3.3 kw, spannometric calculation but I think it does not differ much from reality! :
with 6 kw minimum on the roof and a nice tesla buildup you could do without unshaking too much enel!

thank you pietro, this comforts me. :

 

[Vittorio]

ciao @ pietro2002 e @terastore .
I read your posts carefully and thank you for your interesting contribution.
I'm also doing research to break down energy costs by looking for alternatives. years ago I put in a high-efficiency pellet fireplace which helped me out on savings.
aime... pellets had unjustified increases and from the average price of €4.5 for a lot of 15kg
today is sketched at €9.90 (2 hours ago at leroy merlin).
with these costs.. I think it is no longer convenient to use this renewable source and among ecological quotes.
So among my various research I focused on infrared heating.
I attach the link and if you can find some time to read, I would like to hear your opinion.
Thank you.heating_infrared
ciao

 

[ceschi1959]

ciao @ pietro2002 e @terastore .
I read your posts carefully and thank you for your interesting contribution.
I'm also doing research to break down energy costs by looking for alternatives. years ago I put in a high-efficiency pellet fireplace which helped me out on savings.
aime... pellets had unjustified increases and from the average price of €4.5 for a lot of 15kg
today is sketched at €9.90 (2 hours ago at leroy merlin).
with these costs.. I think it is no longer convenient to use this renewable source and among ecological quotes.
So among my various research I focused on infrared heating.
I attach the link and if you can find some time to read, I would like to hear your opinion.
Thank you.heating_infrared
ciao

I read what is reported in the link and I have some doubts because they seem to me random numbers, where he says, "celsius and fahrenheit panels differ from other systems and among them especially for a matter of performance and consequently price: celsius line panels are the most performing with a yield (measured in kcal produced) of about 8 return compared to other infrared panels and about 30% more than the fahrenheit line." (apart from the annoyance of seeing kcal written with the k capital) they seem to me numbers from ambush.
also writes "celsius cp1/a ultra-return technology allows 550 wh to achieve a 3650 kcal performance." Since when does the performance measure in kcal?
Below are some phrases of a beautiful graduation thesis (https://www.politesi.polimi.it/bits...easuring potenza termica corpi scaldanti.pdf)Chapter 1 use of radiators in low temperature systems
1.1 Introduction
the amount of thermal energy required to heat a room depends solely on its construction characteristics, i.e. its degree of isolation from the outside or the neighboring premises; such amount of energy is the same any emission system decides to install.

 

[PIETRO2002]

I had never seen this type of heating, it seems interesting to me, if the numbers they publish are true, it would be nice to install an element and verify the actual consumption and the "well-being" that these panels give in their operation.
It would be interesting to have someone who already has them in the house!
logically, the necessary conditions are to have a photovoltaic system with its accumulation to power such panels.
If you have to withdraw everything from the national electricity network, I think the game is not worth the candle.
of beauty there is the simplicity of installation!
Unlike heat pumps, with this type of heating the amount of heat is still discovered, which is necessary for sanitary water, which must be obtained either by electric boiler or by gas boiler...
from what I read, to have a good performance, the house must be well insulated.
evaluated the technical aspects, you must then see the economic convenience compared to the different solutions!

 

[PIETRO2002]

reading a bit around, like consumption of an infrared system, they speak that they need about 60 watts per square meter, example of house not very isolated and ceiling height of 2.8 meters.
So if your house is 90 square feet, you need 5.4 kw.
to this power should be added as much as you need for hot water of the sanitary ware and the power for normal household appliances.
if you do not want to give too much money to the enel, it means having on the roof a minimum of 10 / 12 kw of photovoltaic and relative accumulation batteries that can supper on days of little sun.. .
the "serva" accounts, as they say, but to have an idea of maximum

 

[Vittorio]

ok, it is understood that having a thermally isolated house is fundamental and has obvious benefits.
Let's put aside the current cost for electricity for a moment.

I am not a thermotechnical and therefore am a donkey in the matter, but I think I understand that infrared rays do not heat the air but only the affected objects, as our sun does.

If you measure the air temperature in a wood is identical to what we find in a sunny square. the feeling of heat is transmitted by the concrete of the square hit by the infrared.

Apparently air is immune to infrared heating while the affected objects: walls, furniture, sofas, people etc. etc. heat up and give the feeling of thermal well-being.

hiring on youtube then I found these videos talking about celsius panelsIf there is any expert with the patience / desire to see them and to draw serious conclusions would help me to understand whether they are ambushes or serious people.

But in my ignorance in this matter, I have given it a consideration:

the engineer of the videos could make a very simple test, i.e. turn on the panel and turn it to the public to demonstrate the effectiveness, but did not do it.

I'll play the video
video1video2video3ps:
if the discussion continues.. Perhaps it is better to give another name because we are dealing with a topic that has nothing to do with the original title and I do not know how to do

 

[PIETRO2002]

ok, it is understood that having a thermally isolated house is fundamental and has obvious benefits.
Let's put aside the current cost for electricity for a moment.

I am not a thermotechnical and therefore am a donkey in the matter, but I think I understand that infrared rays do not heat the air but only the affected objects, as our sun does.

If you measure the air temperature in a wood is identical to what we find in a sunny square. the feeling of heat is transmitted by the concrete of the square hit by the infrared.

Apparently air is immune to infrared heating while the affected objects: walls, furniture, sofas, people etc. etc. heat up and give the feeling of thermal well-being.

hiring on youtube then I found these videos talking about celsius panelsIf there is any expert with the patience / desire to see them and to draw serious conclusions would help me to understand whether they are ambushes or serious people.

But in my ignorance in this matter, I have given it a consideration:

the engineer of the videos could make a very simple test, i.e. turn on the panel and turn it to the public to demonstrate the effectiveness, but did not do it.

I'll play the video
video1video2video3ps:
if the discussion continues.. Perhaps it is better to give another name because we are dealing with a topic that has nothing to do with the original title and I do not know how to do

I also realized that the operation is that, extremizing, each panel can compare it to a small sun that irrages what it has around.

 

[PIETRO2002]

If it can be useful, to frame the problem, I attach a branch from the eco-network site:

if we consider the energy classes of a house of 100 square meters, for the energy class houses a+, a and b, the infrared system is better than the floor radiant system with air-water heat pump. have the same results infrared panels and radiant systems with air-water heat pump for classes c and d, while for lower class houses, and, f and g the heating system that consumes less energy is the air-water heat pump.