bicycle project (committee)

[Purple Racing]

Good morning, everyone.

I am here not as a designer but a client (committee).
me and a friend have in mind a project for a 3-wheeled bike, a very special "cosetta" which obviously requires a design that starts from scratch.
The idea seems to be successful, but we need to understand what costs the realization entails.

our route could be:
- make a graphic rendering very simple and economical, just to put to video the idea that my partner has in the head
- with the "simple" rendering in hand, assess together with a company that works aluminum (choice of tax material), which can be indicative of production costs
- if production costs are addressable, make a rendering and a definitive design

-> can it work?
-> very simple primary rendering, what can cost us?
-> final design, what can cost us?

thank you in advance for the help you give me.

 

[Fulvio Romano]

a 3-wheeled bike, a very special "cosetta"

-> can it work?
-> very simple primary rendering, what can cost us?
-> final design, what can cost us?

Interested in the cost of generic design?
In the sense, do you want to know how much a detail design costs, regardless of what you plan?

I can do it at 5000€, including renders.

 

[Fulvio Romano]

with the "simple" rendering in hand, evaluate together with a company that works aluminum (choice of tax material)

Isn't it better to go with a sketch on crappy paper? who works aluminum does not need colors and shadows, raytracing and raycaster.. .

Why "taxatively" aluminum?
Is there still people around believing that aluminum is lighter than steel? (This is not a joke. the only not ironic statement in these my posts!)

 

[Purple Racing]

Thanks for the answer.

I realize that my questions are generic and perhaps banal, but unfortunately I am totally ignorant in this matter.
we should design the frame. gearbox and wheels are obviously already ready.

we would have planned to make 2 models.
1 low cost model for amateur use, probably steel
1 ultra-racing model.

the highest range models, in this specific sector are all in carbon or aluminum. the best frame in the world (and the lightest), is made, with my amazement, aluminum and not carbon (probably because of serious design gaps of those who made the carbon frame).
put on the market an ultra steel racing we never even rated it (it would definitely lead to marketing problems, but now I don't want to go into detail)

we obviously need to understand "what costs," both in design and construction terms.
to go from a costructure with a project badly designed on paper, I don't know if then it can lead me to a real estimate of production costs.

 

[MBT]

the highest range models, in this specific sector are all in carbon or aluminum. the best frame in the world (and the lightest), is made, with my amazement, aluminum and not carbon (probably because of serious design gaps of those who made the carbon frame).

or perhaps to deep knowledge that made him understand that it is better aluminum than charcoal...
Then I'd like to understand how to label a product as the "best frame in the world".
on the lighter, it can stay. just a balance
but on "better."... I always have doubts in all fields!

put on the market an ultra steel racing we never even rated it (it would definitely lead to marketing problems, but now I don't want to go into detail)

would be an image problem certainly
of performance, maybe not...

we obviously need to understand "what costs," both in design and construction terms.
to go from a costructure with a project badly designed on paper, I don't know if then it can lead me to a real estimate of production costs.

a builder of those "with cubic balls" can make you a price even with a drawing made on the cheese card
approximate price, of course...
because if then in the detail phase you find that you have to strengthen here and there, add this, weld that, use butter-molybdenum steel or add inserts in transuranic elements. . and then, as they say in my parts, "and goes on the musses". .

 

[Fulvio Romano]

to go from a costructure with a project badly designed on paper, I don't know if then it can lead me to a real estimate of production costs.

you from the aluminum company you have to go with an idea. Clear. precise.

Now, if this idea draws on paper with a nuance pencil, or make a render from the team of pininfarina, what changes? is the information set not the same?

vice versa, if you are afraid to make a design "badly", probably ideas are not clear at all. How do you feel about making a render if you don't know what you want to do?

p.s.
the rules of this forum impose a presentation in the appropriate area. Would you mind providing as soon as possible?

Thank you.

 

[Fulvio Romano]

I would like to understand how to label a product as "best frame in the world".
on the lighter, it can stay. just a balance
but on "better."... I always have doubts in all fields!

Remember that the duchy sells monsters. And it also makes you believe that the frame has "superior" characteristics, although it is a clear how banal design error! or at least a bending of engineering to the desires of marchétting.

would be an image problem certainly
of performance, maybe not...

:finger:
I can show you at any time that, except very rare exceptions, steel is lighter than aluminum.. Besides being less expensive, more workable, without limit of fatigue, easily repairable, and blah, and blah, and blah...

 

[Purple Racing]

or perhaps to deep knowledge that made him understand that it is better aluminum than charcoal...
Then I'd like to understand how to label a product as the "best frame in the world".
on the lighter, it can stay. just a balance
but on "better."... I always have doubts in all fields!
the best is subjective. for us, that we are users of that frame as well as those of competition (which are very few), is the best. is undoubtedly the lightest.would be an image problem certainly
of performance, maybe not...
we have chosen aluminum and do not intend to change our minda builder of those "with cubic balls" can make you a price even with a drawing made on the cheese card
approximate price, of course...
because if then in the detail phase you find that you have to strengthen here and there, add this, weld that, use butter-molybdenum steel or add inserts in transuranic elements. . and then, as they say in my parts, "and goes on the musses". .
Can you tell me one of these builders? Maybe in the lombardy area?

thanks for the answer

 

[MBT]

Remember that the duchy sells monsters. And it also makes you believe that the frame has "superior" characteristics, although it is a clear how banal design error! or at least a bending of engineering to the desires of marchétting.

in fact saying:

I would like to understand how to label a product as "best frame in the world".
on the lighter, it can stay. just a balance
but on "better."... I always have doubts in all fields!

I have raised a doubt about the evaluation of the "best"
according to what do we establish it?
Harder? more elastic? lighter? with the lowest center?
say "lighter" is easy
saying "best" is extremely difficult, opinable and aleatory

 

[MBT]

thanks for the answer

Look. .
I mean like mozart, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know... :biggrin:

the only thing I can suggest is to quote differently, otherwise with the colors jump out a frick.. .

 

[Purple Racing]

Can I hope someone will kindly give me some useful information?

 

[MBT]

Yes.
You can hope
there are definitely bike experts, among the users of the forum
the important thing is to have patience

in the meantime, can we hope to see your presentation, maybe in the area or in the specific discussion?
You know, it'll be pro-forma, but we like it...

 

[Matteo]

I can consider myself a bike expert... my advice is: since the concept 8geoemtria) seems entirely new, parts from a steel prototype easier to weld, even starting from drawings on paper. for all construction details (filettatures, tube sets) try to contact some old frame or mechanic. if then the concept works you can think of a chip/prestational/material optimizations and an industrialization.

 

[Fulvio Romano]

sin though...just a bike expert comes out, the discussion stops.. .

 

[Exatem]

...behind a frickin'...

The fried...
It reminds me of an evening many years ago in a tarvisio cabin. . .
ehhh...:tongue:

coming to the topic, quoto what said by matteo and others who have already responded seen all the advantages listed for the realization of a prototype.
do not neglect the steel that also thanks to hydroforming, lives a second youth. you find companies, I think I'm sorry, http://www.dedacciai.net/ita-tecnologia-telai-per-biciclette/ciclismo-telai-biciclette-home.phpthat sell hydroformed tubes or obtained by drawing to differentiated thicknesses, for all requirements.
I go on racing bike and I have an aluminum/carbon scott but for my backache, I should probably buy myself a steel frame.

 

[stefano.garbin]

Matteo said right.
I add that if you are truly convinced and stra-convinced of the goodness of the idea try to make some drawings and file a patent.
the world of bicycles (in which I work) is made of children of good women ready to steal ideas at all times.

I can show you at any time that, except very rare exceptions, steel is lighter than aluminum.. .

we call e/rho (module of young fract density) the specific stiffness:
for steel (example aisi630) is worth 200/7.85=25.48 [GPa/g/cm^3]for aluminium (example 7075t6) is 71.7/2.81=25.6 [GPa/g/cm^3]for titanium (example 6al4v) is 113.8/4.43=25.69 [GPa/g/cm^3]for carbon (preg fabric) is, in the plane, 68/1.55=43.87 [GPa/g/cm^3]Steel, aluminum and titanium look like specific stiffness. The carbon turns out. a similar reasoning could be done with the specific resistance (breaking rig or fract density yield), and still wins carbon.
carbon is, however, a "brupt beast", a carbon artifact is difficult to do and what a sproposito.
so much aluminum is used, because obviously not all parts of a structure are equally stressed, and therefore in other parts is worth the brute force of lightness (rho=2.7-2.8g/cm^3)

If the steel was the lightest I think the planes would do it with this material. . :wink:

 

[Fulvio Romano]

I can show you at any time that, except very rare exceptions, steel is lighter than aluminum.. .

If the steel was the lightest I think the planes would do it with this material. . :wink:

My joke was about the fact that we often get lost in the fact that aluminum has a lower density.
as you rightly point out, y/rho of steel and aluminum look like, so, so much so as not to get down in details, if you do aluminum, put three times a material that weighs a third, and therefore you have the same weight.

But there's a but. steel is calculated more easily, has a fatigue limit, behaviors under various types of stress are known. is more weldable, admits smaller welding cords. Therefore, always to simplify the overwhelming, with aluminum you have to use a bigger safety factor than with steel.

This is demonstrated that aluminum is heavier than steel.

Of course, a design made by aluminum experts (aerobic case) allows to rosicare where with steel is not possible. and here is also the rare cases mentioned above.

 

[Fabrizio M]

Steel, aluminum and titanium look like specific stiffness. The carbon turns out. a similar reasoning could be done with the specific resistance (breaking rig or fract density yield), and still wins carbon.

I am a mtb biker and I saw "creparsi" 5,000 evri carbon bicycle frames only because they fell from the stand while they were washed.
depends on where the bicycle must be "pedaled", the aluminium weighs 1/3 of the steel, but at the same thickness (not weight) wins the steel.
I have carbon, I'd waste it a priori seen the cost.

 

[Fabrizio M]

-> can it work?
-> very simple primary rendering, what can cost us?
-> final design, what can cost us?

thank you in advance for the help you give me.

If you want, I'll send you to an honest and competent canvasist near the Swiss, give him a sketch on the wrapping paper and he makes you a prototype... not for free.

 

[KTI]

purple, did you find who gives you a hand?
If you still need a hit, send me an e-mail in mp, I'll gladly explain some things.