cad board for technical office

[MarcoBi]

...repeto: In my opinion it is a question of form miners (from 2d to 3d) more than software

Okay, if you want to put it so I agree to say that autocad is closer to the tecnigraph (for who passed there). that is who was born drawing in 2d (when the cads did not exist and the parametric modelers were ufos) has, in my opinion, spread in using sw at the bottom as pro-e. not by chance in 1996 when I bought the last license from ptc, the cost of technical assistance was if I don't remember badly 260.000 lire/hour. (At that time I fought days with an advanced sweep variable (pro-and 16 on unix) and it was not easy to solve).

 

[luca2750]

Okay, I realized that pro-e is at an excellent level, definitely better than inventor and solidedge. We must of course learn to use it fully (I remember that we would like a "easy" program).

However, take away the curiosity/need to know if, for example, with inventor it is possible to manage in a satisfactory way the work we do (ricordo piping, light carpentry and some mechanical piece). We do not want that in spite of an alleged simplicity of use could hide an incomplete operation in creating some forms and/or assemblies.

Thank you very much.

♪

 

[Matteo]

the ideal would be to see one of your models (or a photo of one of the objects): I think we didn't understand the concept of piping! I epr piping mean this:
http://www.iklimnet.com/expert_hvac/hvac_pictures/process_piping.jpgwe are sure that instead you don't need an excellent modeling (magari a surfaces) to do things like this:
http://www.bimmerforums.com/engine_faq/grfx/s702.jpg

 

[maxopus]

Okay, if you want to put it so I agree to say that autocad is closer to the tecnigraph (for who passed there). that is who was born drawing in 2d (when the cads did not exist and the parametric modelers were ufos) has, in my opinion, spread in using sw at the bottom as pro-e. not by chance in 1996 when I bought the last license from ptc, the cost of technical assistance was if I don't remember badly 260.000 lire/hour. (At that time I fought days with an advanced sweep variable (pro-and 16 on unix) and it was not easy to solve).

hi marcobi, it is true that the passage to the parametric cad is not done in half a day, I also come from the tecnigraph (I am 47 years old) and from the very first versions of autocad.
It is simply necessary to understand that in this passage instead of drawing you model.
therefore instead of using the lines of representation (continues, dotted and colored), you build the 3d objects, assemble and put in the table.

I had the advantage of doing some years on think3 and swx, so the approach and method were the same.

I can tell you after 5 years of pro/e that I would never go back and I would not change pro/e with any of the existing midrange cads on the market.

I tried to pick up other well-known cads, it was really a bloodbath.
what I do with pro/e wf4 on a machine with 2gb of ram and 5 years of life (the notebook), with other software is literally impossible.

last month I did the teacher for a course on autocad 2011, on notebooks much more powerful than mine (certificates autodesk).
in 4 hours of course you were thrown out of the program repeatedly and I guarantee that the thing makes me seriously think about the quality of the product.

a professional program must be built in a serious way and it is not thinkable that a customer should run behind with the hardware to all the stramberies that a software house invents from day to day.

here we have the same cars 5 years ago, they go that it is a pleasure, I passed from wf3 to wf5 and I never had surprises.

 

[MarcoBi]

Hello Maxopus. I repeat "nothing to excel" on pro-e. I also chose it to have "garanzie" on the quality with which complex models can be realized.
but as you know how to draw is one thing, modeling another.
then use the parametric is not only a matter of family table and/or assign the variables in the sketcher, but you must also know how to correctly define them, define relationships, know how to use and interpret the error resolution module etc.ecc.
all things that those who draw 2d never had a chance to experiment and that if you face evil at first they can establish a feeling of "drawing".
then when you're "said" you don't go back... .
I could give you an example in the area: pds (intergraph) is consoded by many "hot" because full of "traps" and not easy to administer. but when you master you go like a train and the "qualita" is guaranteed.:finger:
See you soon.

 

[MarcoBi]

Okay, I realized that pro-e is at an excellent level, definitely better than inventor and solidedge. We must of course learn to use it fully (I remember that we would like a "easy" program).

However, take away the curiosity/need to know if, for example, with inventor it is possible to manage in a satisfactory way the work we do (ricordo piping, light carpentry and some mechanical piece). We do not want that in spite of an alleged simplicity of use could hide an incomplete operation in creating some forms and/or assemblies.

Thank you very much.

♪

would be the case of seeing a "typical" axieme.
if what you do is made with std components, whether piping (flange,curve, reductions etc.) or carpentry (std profiles), I do not see limits to autocad+ application.
if you do things a little more sophisticated (some spoke of sweeping variable section, maybe controlled by parameters passed by external prg, or elements with complex morphology and geometry then use pro-e that you already have.

 

[re_solidworks]

I say mine too. In my opinion, you should consider exactly what you need and to focus the target you should start with some targeted demos.
Secondly you should consider what you have in the pro house and to understand if you have all the necessary modules, the number of licenses you need. at this point if what you have of ptc is enough I would limit myself to calling the dealer (or the good ozzy) for training courses, otherwise I would do some extra evaluation.
For example, if you need additional modules with proes you need to evaluate how much they will cost and how much it will cost you maintenance.
if you use external collaborators who do not want to give up it would not be bad to understand that systems have in the house and if they are willing to follow you in your choices.
if the cost of the packages you miss is equivalent to the purchase of a new license of other software the choice becomes very difficult.
proe requires a little more training than the other midranges but not because it is more difficult, we say it is more complete.

just to understand you can tell me what pro license you have? Do you need the piping module? Do you need the piping model to be tied to the p&id as described by ozzy? Do you need the carpentry module to quickly model structures consisting mainly of profiles? What I think is very important: You think you're gonna need a pdm? if you have an idea of what this tool will have to do?

 

[Marco74]

when in the company from me we were in choice again cad 3d we asked the dealers of the cad that according to us could be more performing for our work. we have prepared examples of the examples that retailers had to prove to us that they were able to realize quickly and with the desired result, on three cads in test we were immediately with one, since the other two were not able to make easily what we requested. with this test we also understood who had come only to sell, maybe even if he had the best cad, this dealer went on with his demonstration and just.

 

[Parametric_Ozzy]

when in the company from me we were in choice again cad 3d we asked the dealers of the cad that according to us could be more performing for our work. we have prepared examples of the examples that retailers had to prove to us that they were able to realize quickly and with the desired result, on three cads in test we were immediately with one, since the other two were not able to make easily what we requested. with this test we also understood who had come only to sell, maybe even if he had the best cad, this dealer went on with his demonstration and just.

This is another "delicate" theme, it is right to ask on offer a demonstration customised to your needs and you did well, but it is not correct in my way to see draw conclusions if a dealer does not want to do it because as you say he had come only to sell.
I say this because it happened to me as a situation and it is not always evident to fulfill all the requests of the customers, everything depends on what kind of demonstration is asked, if the examples that arise are simple enough I do not see any kind of problems, when instead they involve a lot of high preparation then sometimes it proposes a demonstration that approaches as much as possible to the type of work of the customer, if a dealer has a good team always proposes a side-side and is propitious.
as in many other jobs, unfortunately the preparation of the offer sometimes implies working days that the customer cannot charge, of course if they buy it is okay, but if they do not do it you know very well that you work always in loss.

The important thing, however, is to be transparent and available by speaking clearly to the customer, you are then to the retailer to evaluate if you risk investing a few more days....

 

[cacciatorino]

This is another "delicate" theme, it is right to ask on offer a demonstration customised to your needs and you did well, but it is not correct in my way to see draw conclusions if a dealer does not want to do it because as you say he had come only to sell.

Although I agree with your remarks, I think that if a seller is unable to understand your problem in flight, he won't be able to handle a call of assistance quickly and efficiently, such as happened to me recently (but the money for the manteinance took them too).

 

[Marco74]

This is another "delicate" theme, it is right to ask on offer a demonstration customised to your needs and you did well, but it is not correct in my way to see draw conclusions if a dealer does not want to do it because as you say he had come only to sell.
I say this because it happened to me as a situation and it is not always evident to fulfill all the requests of the customers, everything depends on what kind of demonstration is asked, if the examples that arise are simple enough I do not see any kind of problems, when instead they involve a lot of high preparation then sometimes it proposes a demonstration that approaches as much as possible to the type of work of the customer, if a dealer has a good team always proposes a side-side and is propitious.
as in many other jobs, unfortunately the preparation of the offer sometimes implies working days that the customer cannot charge, of course if they buy it is okay, but if they do not do it you know very well that you work always in loss.

The important thing, however, is to be transparent and available by speaking clearly to the customer, you are then to the retailer to evaluate if you risk investing a few more days....

I can assure you that what we asked was not of difficult execution, the solid edge retailer (which in the end was our choice) at our request told us, of course it does, did 2 floors, 2 sketches and showed us what we wanted to see, I do not know if at this time solidworks and inventor manage to do what we have now requested 8-9 years ago. Of course, if you ask for complicated things where construction hours are needed, I also understand that retailers cannot do it for demonstration. but the sw dealer has brought out so many of those excuses, and then after the demonstration, unlike the others, he never showed up again.

 

[maxopus]

Although I agree with your remarks, I think that if a seller is unable to understand your problem in flight, he won't be able to handle a call of assistance quickly and efficiently, such as happened to me recently (but the money for the manteinance took them too).

but also the siemens works as with swx, with the requests sent to retailers?

in ptc calls forwards to the customer care, not to the retailer.
there is a green number (or an online request) and they answer you from all over the world but, retailers are not required this function.

 

[Tequila]

This is another "delicate" theme, it is right to ask on offer a demonstration customised to your needs and you did well, but it is not correct in my way to see draw conclusions if a dealer does not want to do it because as you say he had come only to sell.
I say this because it happened to me as a situation and it is not always evident to fulfill all the requests of the customers, everything depends on what kind of demonstration is asked, if the examples that arise are simple enough I do not see any kind of problems, when instead they involve a lot of high preparation then sometimes it proposes a demonstration that approaches as much as possible to the type of work of the customer, if a dealer has a good team always proposes a side-side and is propitious.
as in many other jobs, unfortunately the preparation of the offer sometimes implies working days that the customer cannot charge, of course if they buy it is okay, but if they do not do it you know very well that you work always in loss.

The important thing, however, is to be transparent and available by speaking clearly to the customer, you are then to the retailer to evaluate if you risk investing a few more days....

It is right what you say, in fact at the time when we chose solid edge there was also from the dealer the request to provide us with data and examples so that he could present us an ad hoc targeted demo. the other dealer of the competition instead came the only firing numbers, i.e. their cad is the most sold and so on, and eventually won who was more honest and came to meet our needs. Hi.

 

[cacciatorino]

but also the siemens works as with swx, with the requests sent to retailers?

in ptc calls forwards to the customer care, not to the retailer.
there is a green number (or an online request) and they answer you from all over the world but, retailers are not required this function.

In this case it was the customer care of the swx dealer, in which the operator admitted candidly to have no idea how it worked the thing I was asking him.

However you also have to contact the retailer first that if he is not able to solve the problem, he can trace the hierarchical path and forward the question to siemens-italia, which has the right to ask for help to siemens-mondo.
this is not true for North American customers of siemens (us and Canada) who want can raise the phone and speak directly with the "papapa" of solid edge.

 

[maxopus]

In this case it was the customer care of the swx dealer, in which the operator admitted candidly to have no idea how it worked the thing I was asking him.

However you also have to contact the retailer first that if he is not able to solve the problem, he can trace the hierarchical path and forward the question to siemens-italia, which has the right to ask for help to siemens-mondo.
this is not true for North American customers of siemens (us and Canada) who want can raise the phone and speak directly with the "papapa" of solid edge.

I understood, swx a little know how it works if instead I ignore almost everything.
thanks for the info.

 

[Parametric_Ozzy]

Although I agree with your remarks, I think that if a seller is unable to understand your problem in flight, he won't be able to handle a call of assistance quickly and efficiently, such as happened to me recently (but the money for the manteinance took them too).

Well I understand your discontent in this sense, as maxopus responded to you instead of us works differently, maintenance is true that you pay it to the dealer but in fact it is the customer care of ptc that answers everything, we are not obliged to do it, of course however we do it (talk of me) and we give you an answer quickly.

I can assure you that what we asked was not of difficult execution, the solid edge retailer (which in the end was our choice) at our request told us, of course it does, did 2 floors, 2 sketches and showed us what we wanted to see, I do not know if at this time solidworks and inventor manage to do what we have now requested 8-9 years ago. Of course, if you ask for complicated things where construction hours are needed, I also understand that retailers cannot do it for demonstration. but the sw dealer has brought out so many of those excuses, and then after the demonstration, unlike the others, he never showed up again.

No, but I believe you, I didn't mean you asked for something complicated, I was only talking in general, just to see the other side of the medal in defense of my category.

 

[Parametric_Ozzy]

It is right what you say, in fact at the time when we chose solid edge there was also from the dealer the request to provide us with data and examples so that he could present us an ad hoc targeted demo. the other dealer of the competition instead came the only firing numbers, i.e. their cad is the most sold and so on, and eventually won who was more honest and came to meet our needs. Hi.

who begins to tell you that their cad is the best selling already has a wrong approach and has few arrows in its arc.
at the end honesty always pays.
as a famous councilman said:
Don't stink!:smile:

 

[cacciatorino]

who begins to tell you that their cad is the best selling already has a wrong approach and has few arrows in its arc.
at the end honesty always pays.

And what about those who "no but you know the duck-cad I'm upset because they're miserable finacially, I don't know if you'd better, maybe in the future you'll never be supported..." in the past I've also happened to people like that, there's no limit to indecency... :frown:

 

[re_solidworks]

when in the company from me we were in choice again cad 3d we asked the dealers of the cad that according to us could be more performing for our work. we have prepared examples of the examples that retailers had to prove to us that they were able to realize quickly and with the desired result, on three cads in test we were immediately with one, since the other two were not able to make easily what we requested. with this test we also understood who had come only to sell, maybe even if he had the best cad, this dealer went on with his demonstration and just.

My choice canon was so, and in my specific case we noticed that the demonstrators of if they were sketches, but after 3 demos of different dealers in which no one managed to do what we wanted (and it was not so difficult) we opted for swx.
against the newmacut at the time had presented itself with a really good technician and I would say that still today is one of the best of the market swx italia.
Anyway, we didn't regret the choice we made and it's been 12 years...

 

[re_solidworks]

but also the siemens works as with swx, with the requests sent to retailers?

in ptc calls forwards to the customer care, not to the retailer.
there is a green number (or an online request) and they answer you from all over the world but, retailers are not required this function.

in two years of maintenance 3 calls and zero responses. precise: if you want the answer in English type 1, if you want the answer in French type 2.....
I want to speak my language and after paying it seems to me the least! In my case, he always swabbed the dealer.

It is right what you say, in fact at the time when we chose solid edge there was also from the dealer the request to provide us with data and examples so that he could present us an ad hoc targeted demo. the other dealer of the competition instead came the only firing numbers, i.e. their cad is the most sold and so on, and eventually won who was more honest and came to meet our needs. Hi.

If you send me the example, I'll solve it with swx. As for the retailer I think I understand who came and if he's the same person I confirm that I ran him out of malomodo calling right after his bosses.....

who begins to tell you that their cad is the best selling already has a wrong approach and has few arrows in its arc.
at the end honesty always pays.
as a famous councilman said:
Don't stink!:smile:

Come on, I'm out of here. not design properly washers while using a modest midrange. . .