Do we play weapons? ?

[2¶ - progetti]

Dear colleagues good afternoon!
I press that I will be spoiled with nervousness in this post but the story annoyed me.. .then, I receive from my client (projector of plastic molds) the request of estimate of 6 pcs, three of which exceed 300mm of length...I simulate everything and I get out about 1000cm3 of material, about 160 hours of printing...before I expose myself in my offer I will tell you immediately the digit shot from a consortium, Regional participationMy area.
then, sintered execution, at 400€.... I understand the free market, the times and the crisis and everything, but the market is not going, let's say, ruined....you end up in the rhonal market in this way... .
the commercial dimension that follows me tells me that it is not the first time, but I judge unfair competition....you want how you would behave?
a) I'm not in it, I'm dropping the shot....
b) Are you mean? I work a lot, but I do the job!

bye, diego

 

[IPdesign]

hi diego

Beautiful bitch.
the point at is of obligation as you cannot do it with point b
if you calculate the cost of the material for 1kg comes out that you do not even pay the current of the machine for 160 hours of printing.
Moreover if something goes wrong your expense would exceed the income
Unfortunately in this way there are people or companies willing to do everything to work I say dirty

I have a friend I work with and often compare myself to these issues, he deals with sintered and strereous and has the same problems .

For my part when these things happen to me, I don't even get angry anymore, sooner or later the prices will have to raise them, they can't work forever undercost, if they definitely do it is a game destined to last little.

There is also to be said that with the sintered some companies work by rubbing of the raw material, there are figures that turn the various prototypal companies in search of waste material (what is discarded after the processing process) and reuse it in their machines, recognize it for the yellow color.
result? raw material costs equal to 0, customer who pays a misery but gets a bad product, resulting in the sintering is the one that is in hand with obvious limits

I have no idea, if anyone has enlightened me

 

[maxopus]

the same happens in the laser scan market.
consortia between universities and regions that compete with private companies.
we work undergraduates at zero cost and obviously do indecent prices.
an exposed to the various procures?

 

[2¶ - progetti]

the same happens in the laser scan market.
consortia between universities and regions that compete with private companies.
we work undergraduates at zero cost and obviously do indecent prices.
an exposed to the various procures?

exposed? in Italy?....I send a year of invoicing...I vote b).... work au pair, the difference the compensation with the design, or consider it an investment....
But this cannot be a rule otherwise the investment of the machine goes to be blessed. . .

 

[IPdesign]

by experience if you go with point b next time the customer will want the same treatment otherwise it will go again from the competition and you do??
you will never get your prices up if you compromise with some people
rather you have to try to show them that your product is more valid.
every holy day I have to deal with characters who make the tour of the companies of prototyping in search of who gives up to their blackmails.
Fortunately among us we know each other and in some cases they are emptied

I personally prefer to have 1 customer less but those I know that there is not only the prototype behind my company, but a service with an added value that can be useful also for urgencies or other.

consider that these elements are the first ones that for a cavill then send you unused invoices, and of these times we can not afford it

 

[ferro]

Forgive the intrusion.
I believe that the basis of everything is the lack of knowledge of the differences between the solutions offered.
It's like saying one wants to buy a car without knowing which one.
a dealer offers a mercedes class and one offers a skoda octavia.
Both are cars. but prices are different. and this because at the base there are different characteristics.
to say that so many people are convinced that the sintered is the best.
But go!
made to say exactly the name of the material used.
search for mechanical features on the web. and you will see that your abs (of which you have the technical card, right?) is far better than the material used by your competitor.
and then you have to "educate" your client to distinguish between a skoda and a mercedes...and I swear I chose two random names!:tongue:

and here we go back to the fortus materials that are even better. . .

I hope this is a useful point of reflection.

 

[montigl]

the same happens in the laser scan market.
consortia between universities and regions that compete with private companies.
we work undergraduates at zero cost and obviously do indecent prices.
an exposed to the various procures?

for the pouring according to me is a different speech, graduating at zero cost when 2/3 months later returns to do another job there is no more and with scanning even if at 2 money no one goes anywhere.. .

for reverse customer loyalty is fundamental, but also for rapip it is not to be underestimated, so I quot lucio for quality speech and add that if you lower to point b you contribute so too to ruin the market

 

[maxopus]

for the pouring according to me is a different speech, graduating at zero cost when 2/3 months later returns to do another job there is no more and with scanning even if at 2 money no one goes anywhere.. .

for reverse customer loyalty is fundamental, but also for rapip it is not to be underestimated, so I quot lucio for quality speech and add that if you lower to point b you contribute so too to ruin the market

the various consortia take orders from tens of thousands of euros, especially in the field of cultural goods (I lost many).
and you, who made a 100,000 euro investment for equipment and software, or do hunger prices or are watching.
I believe these practices as a complaint for unfair competition.
These draw on European funds for research to buy tools, do not pay people and do competition to those who spend their money to advance the business.

 

[IPdesign]

It is easy to fall into the speech of free competition, but in this case it is unfair competition.
How to protect yourself? simple avoiding a priori to working at prices that do not allow at least the return of expenses incurred.
I can also think of doing a detail free of charge (many times happen) in order to acquire a customer who does not know the technology proposed and the desire to test.

but what has been exposed does not fall into this case, what is being asked is to work undercost to make the client work to me and not to another.
In my opinion it is a miserable way of seeing the situation, if the cost of the material I use (and I speak of costs which I support for the purchase ) is equal or in some cases higher than the income that comes and if I cannot take into account the costs of amortization machine, then explain to me why I should take over the famous risk of business.
for what reason I should spend years with a lease of several tens of thousands of euros and then find myself to "register" not only my working time but also my investment to others.

if the first hypothesis "free sample" falls into the practice of acquiring a new customer, the second absolutely not!!
In the first case I "honour" my client who at the moment has no exbortion but possibly is informed of the cost of the product if he had purchased it, triggering a principle of appreciation in the customer if it is satisfied.
in the second case instead I provide a service to a "potential client" that is taking advantage of a situation of crisis of the market.. Do you think this customer is coming back later accepting to pay the right??

to you the arduous judgment

 

[Aspex]

personally we dedicate time to explain and follow the customer's interest by focusing on professionalism and assistance without ever falling to the likes of other "pirates", we always adopt and always underline the solution b, I stop the blow, there is no competition with these prices otherwise over time besides not having earned we also pay. Somewhere else you have to start to change things, if we bend all and always the situation does not improve, then honestly I do not believe to sell a product to consider of low cost and if this does not understand the customer maybe we are the ones that we have to aim to make it understand, of course a + close collaboration between us would be of great help, moreover lawyers and notaries teach
war must never be made among the poor otherwise the rich are looking and earning.

 

[montigl]

the various consortia take orders from tens of thousands of euros, especially in the field of cultural goods (I lost many).
and you, who made a 100,000 euro investment for equipment and software, or do hunger prices or are watching.
I believe these practices as a complaint for unfair competition.
These draw on European funds for research to buy tools, do not pay people and do competition to those who spend their money to advance the business.

It is true unfair competition exists and it is wrong to do it, we working in mechanics do not have your problems, so the sector is different and cannot be compared, for European funds however not generalize we have taken it even if we are a srl, are funds for research and are to provisions of all those who make it public and private.
Hi.

 

[maxopus]

It is true unfair competition exists and it is wrong to do it, we working in mechanics do not have your problems, so the sector is different and cannot be compared, for European funds however not generalize we have taken it even if we are a srl, are funds for research and are to provisions of all those who make it public and private.
Hi.

I don't feel like I'm generalized.
European funds or other contributions may be used and obtained honestly or dishonestly.
as in the case of staff training.
there are those who do the courses seriously, there are those who fuck the money (forgive Frenchism).

 

[uluwatu_74]

in Italy...there are those who at the first point of the day aim to work according to a certain "principle"...and there are those who seek exclusively the way to fuck everyone and with every means for their greedy economic interest! and I have not exaggerated at all in terms! ! ! !
I had the opportunity to work (without realizing myself while) for people who did this unfair competition... and I find it simply disgusting! with so much good luck to failure as soon as possible! ! ! !
Obviously there is no appease for those who try to work with honest earning prices...and you only have to take it back!!!! because the customer looking for the low price... of the quality if he bangs highly!

 

[2¶ - progetti]

Dear colleagues...I have raised a wasp!!...I have been working in the industry since September last year but I have found the same kind of vulture I had met in the design!...in fact of belly I would not have dropped the blow, we are entrepreneurs and the concept of quitting we struggle to digest it, even at the cost of putting it back many times.. .
But here we speak not of funds obtained from a srl, like mine, but of company consortili, whose members are chambers of commerce, public bodies and so....the difference is substantial! ! !
we compete in the state!!!!!!! must close with the free profession market! I tell you all, I also lease any type and signed fidejussions. . .
we come to help fortunately retailers who often refuse to sell machines to those who then know would make unfair competition. . .

disability

 

[2¶ - progetti]

.... but I did not clarify that in the end I "molated the blow", by principle and by what is said by ipdesign.. . but who sows wind collects storm... .

disability

 

[maxopus]

we come to help fortunately retailers who often refuse to sell machines to those who then know would make unfair competition. . .

disability

I know a couple of large consortia (one in the north and the other in the south) and they are full of anything.
laser scanners, anthropomorphic arms, structured light tools, total stations, prototype machines and company singing.
Someone's gonna sell it to him all this stuff.

 

[2¶ - progetti]

maxopus, the agency I'm talking about doesn't have fdm machines because stratasys and 3d systems don't want to sell them as much as I told you, anything else I don't know....ah, do you know who is one of the associates of this company?????! a treviso industry... .

disability

 

[Fulvio Romano]

tonight I was at the mechanic... he had the following sign and I liked it:

the bitterness of quality remains long, even after the sweetness of the low price has vanished

 

[fabio70]

Dear colleagues good afternoon!
I press that I will be spoiled with nervousness in this post but the story annoyed me.. .then, I receive from my client (projector of plastic molds) the request of estimate of 6 pcs, three of which exceed 300mm of length...I simulate everything and I get out about 1000cm3 of material, about 160 hours of printing...before I expose myself in my offer I will tell you immediately the digit shot from a consortium, Regional participationMy area.
then, sintered execution, at 400€.... I understand the free market, the times and the crisis and everything, but the market is not going, let's say, ruined....you end up in the rhonal market in this way... .
the commercial dimension that follows me tells me that it is not the first time, but I judge unfair competition....you want how you would behave?
a) I'm not in it, I'm dropping the shot....
b) Are you mean? I work a lot, but I do the job!

bye, diego

Hello diego, problem known!!
Unfortunately consortia of this type there are more and more, they buy the machines, and they give in management the activity at cost zero. their only cost is the raw material and fixed expenses (personal, energy etc.).
for us that we do service is a beautiful dilemma. impossible to win on the cost plan.
a weapon is to have a better service and quality by trying to optimize the work better so as to be as competitive as possible, without ever putting it back.
On your question, I would opt for the solution to, too much difference, if you opt for the b solution, you just put it back.

as iron says :biggrin: moreover you cannot compare a prototype in fdm with a sls, they are different things, there is no a priori a winning. One thing, almost always confirmed ..., is that sls technology is cheaper. Otherwise we talk about technical details where there is the need for resistance to high temperatures, resistance to hydrocarbons, self-extinguishing here wins fdm !!!
fabio

 

[2¶ - progetti]

this morning I was from a civil engineering studio, they called me for a 1:250 scale plastic of their important project. have performed the classic balsa model, spent 1500€, and are disappointed, now I have the task to optimize the model to print it in abs, nylon does not like, too rough...it is not a matter of cost, seen the total amount, but of quality....and then I did well to give up the other job, so I have the machine ready for a serious job!! thank you all... .

disability