extraordinary forfetized in pay envelope

[mir]

Bye to all,
a couple of things leave me puzzled in a work proposal that I received regarding the forfeitization of the extraordinary in pay envelope:
1. did you have to do the hours of extraordinary forfeit (treated about an hour every day...)?
2. Can the employer remove this forfait from the payroll from one day to another?

I also turned the matter to a synod and I will let you know.

What do you say? Do you have experience?

 

[MassiVonWeizen]

explains what you mean by lump sum. . .

that I know:
the extraordinary is not mandatory.
the cost the extraordinary is established at national level by the collective contract of belonging
if you do an hour of extraordinary and this does not result in the pay envelope you worked for free for an hour
the change of the contract cannot be decided unilaterally and without written documentation

 

[MassiVonWeizen]

Just do a search with words extraordinary forfectious to have dozens of pages to consult

dated article, but that should answer your questionhttps://www.laleggepertutti.it/6178...mborso-spese-in-busta-paga-retribuzione-fissaI'll take a step back.
If the employer pays you a lump sum for the extraordinary work you have done, this is now considered an integral part of the fixed pay (in particular, as an individual superminimum), regardless of how such amount is qualified in a pay envelope. the important thing is that the bond is stable and constant over time. with the consequence that, once this right has been accrued, the company will no longer be able to withdraw, even in the future, its payment.

 

[mir]

thank you I read as well as you passed me ... I was curious to see if someone had direct experiences.

substantively, the employer says that if you're on the road until 20 hours a month it's forfeitized and we don't pay you extra.

 

[haga78]

the forfetized is an extra superminimum type compensation that is added to the basic pay and includes the overtime.
is usually paid for middle-level assignments and is not linked to the number of hours of overtime planned.
You should see what they propose and how many hours of extraordinary they ask you to do, to see who earns (probably the company, if it proposes you this...).
leave the unions, go to your accountant or a job advisor and show how economically the extraordinary amount you would do (talks of 1 h/gg) and then try to have this amount and also something more from the employer as a forfait (parts from a figure higher than you want to have, then leave margins for negotiation).
Keep in mind that the overtime is mandatory and non-optional (as someone wrote), you cannot exempt from doing so unless for a justified reason.
e.g. ccnl metalmeccanico provides up to 250 hours a year without union consultation.
If you accept a forfait too low you will probably find yourself doing many hours for an irresponsible amount without being able to oppose you.
Keep in mind that as long as you are in the process you can change (maybe) things, once you sign a "all inclusive" contract then it will be almost impossible to get something more in the future.

 

[MassiVonWeizen]

Keep in mind that the overtime is mandatory and non-optional (as someone wrote), you cannot exempt from doing so unless for a justified reason.

Can you bring back where this thing is indicated?

 

[mir]

we are in ccnl metalmeccanico
question 1: But can extraordinary work become ordinary? As I stop at the need, but I wonder if I go to vacations in August as if I miss two weeks?
https://www.orizzontelavoro.it/contratto-metalmeccanici/230Question 2: I care more than they are no longer removable at the discretion of the employer.

 

[MassiVonWeizen]

for question 2 I refer you to this article, always a little dated, but I do not find it new
before paragraph 2 it is specified that there cannot be unilaterality in the reduction of the forfeit, but it takes the consent of the workerhttp://www.studionerlicdl.it/la-pat...traordinario-e-la-sua-possibile-riducibilita/

 

[haga78]

Can you bring back where this thing is indicated?

ccnl metalmechanical title third art.7:

"No worker may refuse, unless justified, to perform extraordinary, nocturnal and festive work. "

See you qui

 

[MassiVonWeizen]

but in the same article it is also said that:

extraordinary work must have an exceptional character.
except for exceptional and unpredictable cases, the management of the company will give prior information of the extraordinary work, usually in a special meeting, to the union representation unitaria.


therefore from what I understand the company through the forfeiting contract has informed myr about the continuous need of extraordinary correspondent to 20 hours monthly that are paid.
all the extra ones however should not fall into this statement and mir should not be required to lend them as long as there is no specific written request from the company.

 

[haga78]

we are in ccnl metalmeccanico
question 1: But can extraordinary work become ordinary? As I stop at the need, but I wonder if I go to vacations in August as if I miss two weeks?
https://www.orizzontelavoro.it/contratto-metalmeccanici/230Question 2: I care more than they are no longer removable at the discretion of the employer.

question 1: theoretically not, because article 7 says that it must have character of exceptionality, but in a certain sense it is making you count, as the company can make you do up to 250 hours a year without union consultation, respecting the daily limits (max 2h/gg and 8h/sett). See you quipractically are 20 h a month, if you exclude Saturday (if you don't wonder that too) they are 1h/gg always.
It is clear that if you go to vacation you will be less hours that month (unless you are asked to do more hours of extraordinary in the remaining days).
not to break down, but there are companies (of my knowledge) that obligate to make extraordinary 11 months out of 12 quietly exceeding the limit of 250 hours a year.. .

question 2: that I know the forfeit is not eliminateable (except in exceptional cases type corporate restructuring etc., but the practice to do so is complex...), of course that in case they have to remove it then they will have to correspond the extraordinary according to the hours actually carried out.

 

[haga78]

m


therefore from what I understand the company through the forfeiting contract has informed myr about the continuous need of extraordinary correspondent to 20 hours monthly that are paid.
all the extra ones however should not fall into this statement and mir should not be required to lend them as long as there is no specific written request from the company.

Unfortunately not, with the forfait you do not count the hours, is in the nature of the instrument itself: the forfait is always that, if you have to do over 20 h you do it and the forfait is that, obviously if you happen to do less hours (or that maybe in a period you don't do it at all) you always perceive the same forfait.
It's like the flat rate on the phone.
that is why I said to make an assessment of those that are approximately the required hours and ask for a somewhat higher forfeit than that value.

 

[mir]

Unfortunately not, with the forfait you do not count the hours, is in the nature of the instrument itself: the forfait is always that, if you have to do over 20 h you do it and the forfait is that, obviously if you happen to do less hours (or that maybe in a period you don't do it at all) you always perceive the same forfait.
It's like the flat rate on the phone.
that is why I said to make an assessment of those that are approximately the required hours and ask for a somewhat higher forfeit than that value.

as you say ... even if, to say all, even if flattized you should never go to take less than established by the ccnl (read here what it says to the forfetized):https://www.6sicuro.it/lavoro/lavoro-straordinario-regole-retribuzioni-normativa-quante-ore

 

[Fulvio Romano]

Hi, mir,
Extraordinary forfeiture is a common practice, foreseen by almost all ccnl, over a certain level. the legal concept behind this is that if you are a "low" level the company buys from you a mountain hours. imagine the operator of the assembly line, if in an hour he mounts ten pieces, in two hours he will mount twenty (vabbé, come, is an example). if instead you start to become a higher level the company buys from you a service and becomes a little more elastic on the concept of mountain hours. As you assume that some extraordinary you will do it of your own will to reach the goals that have been assigned to you, and then you prefer not to count the hours, but to pay them to forfait.

Obviously, on average, those extra hours you will have to do, but no one counts them. Of course, if you go out at 5:00 p.m., you'll give in the eye, but usually nobody goes to fleas on how many hours you've worked and how many you've been paid, even because you'll do more than those paid, and it's normal, it changes the type of work and the professional satisfaction that follows.

in any case this offer is a promotion, therefore:
1. you will have a separate addendum to the contract that explains exactly why you are promoted and what the company expects from you.
2. If you were revoked, it would be a demansionment. possible, by charity, but sanctioned in the vast majority of cases.