help for insufficient hydraulic force

[Danlau]

hello to all, I would need help to solve a problem, if someone can help me understand what to do.

I have a kneader that when working, as soon as it goes under stress, tends to slow down or stop. Consider that this already happens with a dough of 10-15 kg, when the machine should work up to 40-50 kg.

the machine has a three-phase hydraulic pump of 1.5 kw, which fishes the oil from the tank and turns a pulley, which in turn transmits the turns via belt to the reducer (rapp. 1:60). Finally there is also an oil flow variator, which is used to adjust the reducer turns, varying the flow of oil.

I noticed that by empty car, if I minimize the number of laps, the arms tend to stop or not leave, instead at medium speed I have no problem. Today I tried to use the kneading machine, when I started with 10-15 kg of product, turning it at average speed, the arms stopped. so I had to set the speed at maximum, and so I managed to turn the arms, but however they turned much slower than the maximum speed that was set. Finally when the dough started to mass and take consistency, they slowed down until they stopped completely. and I practically had to uninstall the oil control lever, and re-enter it to try to restart it. But as soon as you restart, after a few seconds that came back understrength, they resigned. and so until the dough decreased the dough to 4-5 kg.

Now I can tell you that this is a car I bought used, and when I took it I changed the oil. the person who had told me that I had to put some common plumbing oil, and gave me a candy that he had already added, and it was 46. I therefore, believing that it was that, I made the change buying of ISO 46. from profane now I get doubt, is it not that the problem is due to the type of wrong oil?
a last note, the same pump feeds a hydraulic piston, which serves to lift a part of the machine, when the product must be downloaded.

I hope someone can help me, if you need more information please tell me.
Thank you very much
Daniele

 

[numero1]

question, but did it work well when you already took it?
Did you try?
if the answer is yes then it could actually be oil, so on my side I recommend you in order:
1) check on the machine maintenance booklet (which should have given you) what kind of oil is written.
2) as above but on the plate containing the machine data (including oil), and which should be fixed by means of rivets for example, on the equipment itself.
3) as the machine is called, you should be able to see it clearly, call the manufacturer or go to his site, and you should find the model of the machine with its recommended oil.
4) ask the guy who sold you what kind of oil he used.

Hi.

p.s.http://www.compagniaitalianalubrifi...nu2=vanguard_industria.php&menu3=oleodinamicithis is the type of oil iso46, and alsohttp://www.chimicasanfedele.com/pdf/tecniche/ol-11w46.pdf

 

[meccanicamg]

Hello, danlau,
After checking out what she said number1, I suggest you check out more. because if in the end the oil arrives but the maximum speed is not like the one it had at the beginning, I would say that the system of motor pump can be a little fruit, in the sense that they can have worn the palettes or the gears or the seals inside the pump body. in the end you can't have proper pressure depending on the flow rate and this definitely can be given by the pump wear itself.

You could try to disassemble the pumping organ and give it a revision or replace it. If you don't want to spend enormously you can always try a thicker oil that can't slip into the worn mechanisms.

also check the belt transmission that does not slip and possibly replace the belt itself.

 

[Danlau]

hello guys and thank you for the interventions.
This was the first time I tried the car, and I had the surprise. even because when I made it go empty just taken, it was fine, the problem occurs when it goes under stress.
in the guy who sold it to me told me that went oil iso 46, and cmq I was told that that type of oil is used x high carts, so I think it should go well anyway. I could always contact the company of the machine, even though I think it might be the pump.
But I would have had another idea:in the future I would like to eliminate the hydraulic system and directly couple the motor on the reducer, adjusting the speed with inverter. the problem is that the engine is very old, and its insulation could be insufficient for the inverter.
so I would have thought that instead of fixing the pump, I could couple the engine with the gearbox, adding a mechanical speed variator. What do you think?
so I completely eliminate the hydraulic system and I can exploit the same engine without putting the inverter.
Do you know if the speed variators are on the market? because on the sites I have only seen complete products motor+variator+reducer.

The last problem that would remain is the hydraulic piston for lifting. Is there any mini system to feed him alone? Or an electric lifting system? Consider that the piston has a diam arm 25 mm, piston length of about 300 mm, and piston diameter of 60 mm.
I have to try to find the best solution by trying to contain the expenses.

thank you so much for the help!!! !
Daniele

 

[Er Presidente]

Put a pressure gauge somewhere on the madata and check if the pressure arrives where it should arrive.

 

[Meccbell]

follow the president's council. :bekle:

first of all because it is the most logical thing to do. Maybe someone has unbuttoned on the control screw of the maximum pressure valve and the problem is resolved with a few laps of the above adjustment screw.

and then why the president's "talks" should always be followed.
No matter what. :wink:

p.s.: obviously you have to use an oleodynamic pressure gauge, those in glycerin bath (they don't cost much, at most a 2 or 3 dozen euros) and better still if placed so as to avoid any air bubbles and with a tap to isolate it, otherwise after a short time the vibrations of the hydraulic fluid could "make you out".

 

[meccanicamg]

hello guys and thank you for the interventions.
This was the first time I tried the car, and I had the surprise. even because when I made it go empty just taken, it was fine, the problem occurs when it goes under stress.
in the guy who sold it to me told me that went oil iso 46, and cmq I was told that that type of oil is used x high carts, so I think it should go well anyway. I could always contact the company of the machine, even though I think it might be the pump.
But I would have had another idea:in the future I would like to eliminate the hydraulic system and directly couple the motor on the reducer, adjusting the speed with inverter. the problem is that the engine is very old, and its insulation could be insufficient for the inverter.
so I would have thought that instead of fixing the pump, I could couple the engine with the gearbox, adding a mechanical speed variator. What do you think?
so I completely eliminate the hydraulic system and I can exploit the same engine without putting the inverter.
Do you know if the speed variators are on the market? because on the sites I have only seen complete products motor+variator+reducer.

The last problem that would remain is the hydraulic piston for lifting. Is there any mini system to feed him alone? Or an electric lifting system? Consider that the piston has a diam arm 25 mm, piston length of about 300 mm, and piston diameter of 60 mm.
I have to try to find the best solution by trying to contain the expenses.

thank you so much for the help!!! !
Daniele

Are we still not talking about the same things as the other post? we have already discussed the motor or motor system. :finger:

 

[Meccbell]

Put a pressure gauge somewhere on the madata and check if the pressure arrives where it should arrive.

: Jigggrin: : piggrin:"nous, volevuan, savuar, to go. where we have to go... "[cit. Totò, Peppino e la malafemmina]escusemuà, pute the presidant, but the settlement is taken "by spring" :tongue:

 

[Meccbell]

Are we still not talking about the same things as the other post? we have already discussed the motor or motor system. :finger:

Yes, but the boy takes a "exit strategy".
and then he obviously wants to make sure that we do not distract. :biggrin:

 

[Er Presidente]

would also serve an amperometric caliper on the cables of the electric motor.
with the values obtained in the various conditions would have a sort of "table of truth".

pump in operation with plant in "folle" (to vacuum):
minimum pressure (less than 10 bar) minimum "electric" absorption (less than 10% of the max rated).

operation "under load":
maximum hydraulic pressure, electrical absorption equal to the maximum "targa" of the engine.

with the tests in "folle" is evaluated if the "mechanic" works well. If there's a pump gripped the pressure will be low but the amperes will be "high", index of useless effort.

with the tests in load the pressure if it does not rise (and also the amperes do not reach the maximum), there is a "loss" desired (bypass) or not (transfilment of pump gears).

if the pressure reaches the maximum, but the motor "falls" of turns, absorbing also the double of the maximum amperes, then there is an excessive load, fault of some mechanical organ downstream. probably have "started" the bypass to have what was missing, without success.

a "turned" electric motor absorbs a lot of current, but does not "produce" work, pressure is low and high amperes.

In short, with a gauge and an amperometric caliper you can know many things, without disassembling anything.

 

[Er Presidente]

"nous, volevuan, savuar, to go. where we have to go... "[cit. Totò, Peppino e la malafemmina]escusemuà, pute the presidant, but the settlement is taken "by spring" :tongue:

The trip abroad is served!
:smile:

 

[Danlau]

Are we still not talking about the same things as the other post? we have already discussed the motor or motor system. :finger:

Yes mechanicalmg, it is practically the same subject as the other post. I am talking about it because the situation has changed:

I initially wanted to use the machine as it is, with the hydraulic system. Meanwhile, however, plan for future adjustment, eliminating the hydraulic system and thinking of the inverter. from here, thanks to your help, I realized that in that case I will have to replace the engine, because of the isolation.
In addition, I also noticed that the transmission on the reducer is further reduced with the pulleys. So if I eliminate this reduction, with the engine at 1400 turns, I have a greater number of final turns, equal to those that served me.

Unfortunately, now that I put the machine in place, I just discovered the problem of hydraulic pressure! I want to replace the system with the inverter now, I can't deal with the expense now. so without spending more money for pressure control pressure gauges, new pump or revision, thicker oil, etc... I thought of replacing the hydraulic system now, but adding to the current engine and gearbox, a mechanical variator. so I should solve the problem now, eliminate the hydraulic system and contain the expenses.
of course so, alongside the inverter hypothesis.

 

[meccanicamg]

so without spending more money for pressure control pressure gauges, new pump or revision, thicker oil, etc... I thought of replacing the hydraulic system now, but adding to the current engine and gearbox, a mechanical variator. so I should solve the problem now, eliminate the hydraulic system and contain the expenses.
of course so, alongside the inverter hypothesis.

the substitution of the plumbing system and the addition of a motorchanger do not think they arrive free. the hydraulic pump could be on 70-100 euros and the mechanical variator 150-200 euros.

But eventually, do you remove the plumbing system or not?

 

[Danlau]

the substitution of the plumbing system and the addition of a motorchanger do not think they arrive free. the hydraulic pump could be on 70-100 euros and the mechanical variator 150-200 euros.

But eventually, do you remove the plumbing system or not?

you mechanicalmg, however I have to replace the hydraulic system, or now or later. is a mixer for mozzarella, the tank with the dough, boiling water, steam etc. It's under the motorization, and it's all over it. the whole thing is open, so the dirt or anything can end up under. Then I don't want to imagine if he's gonna lose some oil pipe that's gonna make me.

then, instead of spending 100 now, and then anyway 200 after, better take now the variator! the thing changed if the machine worked well, in that case I arranged so, I would organize myself calmly and at the opportune moment I would have replaced everything to the best.

a question, but 150-200 euros would be the price of the only variator, right?
Today however I come to a spare parts center to see a little what there is and prices.

By the way, do you know anything about actuators or electrocylinders? I have to look for an alternative system to the hydraulic piston, otherwise when I eliminate the pump I don't know how to do it.

 

[Fulvio Romano]

By the way, do you know anything about actuators or electrocylinders? I have to look for an alternative system to the hydraulic piston, otherwise when I eliminate the pump I don't know how to do it.

pinion and rack with a small autofrenate motor. should be enough.

 

[Danlau]

Guys, they asked me 420 euros for the only variator, isn't it a bit exaggerated? a tram for 1.5 kw engine.
Can someone tell me some dealer with competitive prices I can address? everywhere, so much possibly I send it.

 

[meccanicamg]

Guys, they asked me 420 euros for the only variator, isn't it a bit exaggerated? a tram for 1.5 kw engine.
Can someone tell me some dealer with competitive prices I can address? everywhere, so much possibly I send it.

420 - 40% of 420 makes you pay 252 to take it away at cost price... Make 300 a little less obvious. from non-customer is a pretty fair price.

By levering the oleodynamics you can use the air cylinders, always provided that you can develop the same forces and with compatible encumbrances. electrocylinders are motors with endless screws that make the cylinder stem come out/enter.

depends on what they have to move and how. angles of rotation, speed etc. also the rack with braked motor could be a solution even if personally nn I graze a great deal and then you must always see what you have to move and how. :finger:

 

[Meccbell]

I think that for less than 320-350 € you can't find better, at least if you stay in the class of trams and similar.
then there are the "exotic" brands that give it to you even less than half, but the duration is in direct proportion.

Perhaps at the end the revision of the hydraulic system would cost you less.
You already have everything you need and don't go to embark on adventures not entirely discounted as a result.

make such a modification, from plumber to mechanic, for a single specimen makes sense only if no spare parts are available, or if it is assumed that on all the machines produced a similar solution has created problems of reliability and/or maintenance so as to make it completely impossible.

 

[Danlau]

I think that for less than 320-350 € you can't find better, at least if you stay in the class of trams and similar.
then there are the "exotic" brands that give it to you even less than half, but the duration is in direct proportion.

Perhaps at the end the revision of the hydraulic system would cost you less.
You already have everything you need and don't go to embark on adventures not entirely discounted as a result.

make such a modification, from plumber to mechanic, for a single specimen makes sense only if no spare parts are available, or if it is assumed that on all the machines produced a similar solution has created problems of reliability and/or maintenance so as to make it completely impossible.

no maccbell, the car has that system because it's what they were up to 30 years ago. in fact what they do now, that they are identical, they do them with the motorboat. However, I already know the results that I get with mechanical motorization, I worked in a competing company that made machines for the same use. Although I was the technician who taught customers the technology and how to work the product with the machine, however when I was in the company I helped to mount them. therefore both at the level of use and mechanical, known the difference!

 

[Danlau]

420 - 40% of 420 makes you pay 252 to take it away at cost price... Make 300 a little less obvious. from non-customer is a pretty fair price.

By levering the oleodynamics you can use the air cylinders, always provided that you can develop the same forces and with compatible encumbrances. electrocylinders are motors with endless screws that make the cylinder stem come out/enter.

depends on what they have to move and how. angles of rotation, speed etc. also the rack with braked motor could be a solution even if personally nn I graze a great deal and then you must always see what you have to move and how. :finger:

hello mechanicalmg, so the quotation of the variator is more or less that.
for lifting I would like to avoid the pneomautical piston, not to be bound to the compressor.
If I show you some pictures of the machine with the piston, would you better advise me on what system between rack and electrocylinder address me? however considered that it will lift 150 - max 200 kg.
is it possible from the hydraulic piston to trace its characteristics? near there is nothing written.