how to increase the number of laps of a kneader?

[Danlau]

Good morning to all,
I would like an opinion from someone competent on a change I would like to make.

I bought a used kneader, like motorization mounts a 1400 rpm three-phase motor with a hydraulic pump. with the latter is turned the reducer that has a reduction of 1:60. the machine must knead a mass of 40-50 kg.
Since it is old, I would like to replace the hydraulic transmission with a motoinverter mounted directly on the gearbox.
It is necessary that, during processing, the machine may vary the number of turns, so the motorinverter will be controlled with potentiometer.
Finally, since the number of maximum turns currently developing the machine is a little low for my needs, I would like to be able to increase it by 1/3 - 1/4 compared to the current one.
What do you think of replacement with motoinverter?
if on the occasion of the replacement, I set a motor with greater number of turns of the current to have at maximum speed more turns? (without replacing the reducer. )
What would change?
what can be the best and not too expensive situation?an early thank you! ! !

 

[sampom]

Good morning to all,
I would like an opinion from someone competent on a change I would like to make.

I bought a used kneader, like motorization mounts a 1400 rpm three-phase motor with a hydraulic pump. with the latter is turned the reducer that has a reduction of 1:60. the machine must knead a mass of 40-50 kg.
Since it is old, I would like to replace the hydraulic transmission with a motoinverter mounted directly on the gearbox.
It is necessary that, during processing, the machine may vary the number of turns, so the motorinverter will be controlled with potentiometer.
Finally, since the number of maximum turns currently developing the machine is a little low for my needs, I would like to be able to increase it by 1/3 - 1/4 compared to the current one.
What do you think of replacement with motoinverter?
if on the occasion of the replacement, I set a motor with greater number of turns of the current to have at maximum speed more turns? (without replacing the reducer. )
What would change?
what can be the best and not too expensive situation?an early thank you! ! !

Bye.

put a mechanical reducer, gear or screw without end (more economical and for that use it goes well), which has less reduction ratio (see that about 30% you talk about). to the motor (if you can "isolate" from the pump avoid changing it, useless to take it faster if you already have reducer and inverter) add an inverter with a logic that allows you in addition to vary the speed in a direct way also to set up "recepts"; you will automatically have different processing cycles adapted to the product to be kneaded. Put on the ingredients, turn on and don't think about it anymore. if you have to make additions wanting programs an acoustic/luminous signal that in due time warns you, if it is the case stops the machine and then restarts taking the cycle.

greetings
Marco:smile:

 

[gerod]

I also want security. It is a substantial change and therefore it must be pointed out there.
Hi.

 

[Mario SJPD]

if you want to change the speed there are also motorboatshttp://www.motovario-group.com/ita/pc-5-motovariatori---serie-var

 

[meccanicamg]

Good morning to all,
I would like an opinion from someone competent on a change I would like to make.

I bought a used kneader, like motorization mounts a 1400 rpm three-phase motor with a hydraulic pump. with the latter is turned the reducer that has a reduction of 1:60. the machine must knead a mass of 40-50 kg.
Since it is old, I would like to replace the hydraulic transmission with a motoinverter mounted directly on the gearbox.
It is necessary that, during processing, the machine may vary the number of turns, so the motorinverter will be controlled with potentiometer.
Finally, since the number of maximum turns currently developing the machine is a little low for my needs, I would like to be able to increase it by 1/3 - 1/4 compared to the current one.
What do you think of replacement with motoinverter?
if on the occasion of the replacement, I set a motor with greater number of turns of the current to have at maximum speed more turns? (without replacing the reducer. )
What would change?
what can be the best and not too expensive situation?an early thank you! ! !

Hello, danlau,
It is necessary to compare economically according to the benefits obtained. solutions are different... you go from a three-phase motor with mechanical speed variator, motor+endless screw reducer (economic) with adjustment inverter, to something more evolved with motor+reducer+inverter+reception panel "receipt"+plc.

As far as the rimarcatura is regulating there is obligatory as you go to redesign the car compared to the current state but being an old machine I would not hire the burden of the ce if it was in good state (really).

 

[Danlau]

hello to all, and thanks for the various interventions posted.

I prefer to avoid and think about the inverter, even if I have to spend a little more.
for the plc or in any case a speech of "receipt", does not do to my case. This machine must work guided by the operator, which depending on the dough that is present at the moment, makes instant decisions on how it should work.
practically goes well the potentiometer to vary the turns with the inverter, depending on the need that occurs during the processing. beyond all, the engine is mounted above the machine, so it is not easy to reach, instead the potentiometer I could put it on the control panel.

the point is this:
the machine has a three-phase motor of 1.5 kw to 1400 turns + screw reducer s.f. 1:60. practically should develop 23,3 max/minute spins.
other kneading machines for the same use have a maximum speed greater, which is definitely better for processing. Usually these machines mount gearboxes 1:40 and assuming that the engine speed is 1400, it is 35 max/minute.

now if I want to have about 30-35 g.max/min:
- if I change only the reducer with a 1:40 (by adding inverter to the engine), I think I would have less torque, and it's not okay.
- if I change engine and gearbox, I know I have to take the 1:40 , but I don't know the engine from how many kw it must be, in order to have the same pair of the current motorization (1.5 kw to 1400 + 1:60).
-I finally hoped for a third chance, that is to take a motoinverter to be able to turn up to a max of 2100, that with my 1:60, makes me have a speed max of 35g./min. Of course I must also have the same pair of the current motorization!
So I was asking someone for help to figure out how to move to find a solution.
Thank you, daniele

 

[MBT]

It is true, if you change the ratio of loss of couple to the tool
but it is not necessarily true that this is a problem. If the other machines have the same installed power, it means that with a smaller pair they make it.
However, to know what power you need with ratio 1:40 to maintain the same pair as 1.60, you just need to make a simple calculation.
1.5 * (60/40) = 2.25
therefore a 2.2 kw engine should do to your case, obviously excluding several returns of the reducer. However, generally, at least for screws, if you reduce the ratio the performance increases

with an inverter you can turn a Good motor up to 100 hz, then 2800 turns. but must be a good motor controlled by a good inverter. If you take Chinese, forget it!
but the pair also varies. of course, since the power remains constant...

 

[myface]

on that type of machines however you work a generous security factor for this you can find differences of plate power on similar machines.

In my experience, the work of the kneader is burdened more than it might seem, even with regard to working conditions.

If you opt for the electronic change of speed is fine, maybe you prefer a servo-ventilated engine. increases power as the hunter rightly says.

Hi:

 

[myface]

I'm sorry. .

 

[Danlau]

Thanks mbt and myface!
in case you want to avoid changing the entire motorization, on another forum I posted the same topic, a user recommended me:"if the current engine is a 230v(220v) bound "d" and 400v(380v) connected "y", you just need to add an inverter.
connect the "d" motor and in the parameterization of the inverter v/f line put as a final point 400v/87hz. In this way your engine works up to 87hz, corresponding to about 2450 rpm, torque (almost) constant.
Obviously the inverter must be sized to supply the current that the engine absorbs with "d" connection. "What do you think of this? from what I understood, if I take for my current engine a good inverter as you said, I should be able to exploit it up to more than 2100 turns, or anyway until you get the desired turns.
Right? and about the couple remains almost constant or is there loss? according to you in what approximate percentage could bypass the loss?
practically in the hypothetical case my kneading machine, can currently knead up to 40 kg of product at maximum and minimum speed, once under inverter increases the maximum turns, will I still be able to knead about 40 kg to the new max and minimum turns?

 

[MBT]

on the motor behaviour under inverter, I felt of any type and type
by experience, however, the engines travel well with the inverters only if they are newly built, otherwise you risk finding yourself abnormal behaviors.
You can always try... You have to take the inverter anyway. . .
if it doesn't work as you feel appropriate, you know you have to change engine and reducer as well.
But, if I were you, I would already put that expense in the budget.

 

[meccanicamg]

I know that not all motors and inverters are theoretical. much depends also on the type of inverter that in addition to the frequency change can also change the current and other different models.

I unfortunately happened to see engines in which the couple fell dizzyingly with some low cost inverters raising the frequency. if the engine is old, already of its does not have the original characteristics if they are years and years that turn... It's normal.

 

[Danlau]

hi friends, sorry if I didn't respond anymore and I didn't thank you, but I haven't had much time lately.
I have now discovered another problem on the machine, and perhaps it is going to end that if solved, the maximum turns that would develop the current motorization could go well! in such case, if it is possible to add a mechanical speed variator, remedy so in the meantime. so I still exploit the current engine, and I count the expenses, momentarily.
However, as soon as I solve the current problem, I'll let you know.
Thank you all!
Daniele