machine with electric motor: i follow only 2006/42ce or even 2006/95ce.. ?

[reggio]

Hello, they ask us to correct a ns machine controlled by an electric motor (commercial) without electric picture (customer load) with the usual 2006/42ce, but also to report the following rules/directives
2006/95ce
emc 2004/108/
cei en 60204-1:2006
uni iso 12100-1:2005
uni iso 12100-2:2005
in addition to declarations of conformity
1935/04/ce
2008/39/
Finally they require the manual (ok), but including risk analysis.

I asked:
- in our statement 2006/42ce we must also report the external norms possibly followed or is valid reasoning "the machine is certified, trust us and do not ask to know anything else"?

- with regard to the manual (not technical file), do you have to understand risk analysis?

Thank you!

 

[Fulvio Romano]

Hello, they ask us to correct a ns machine controlled by an electric motor (commercial) without electric picture (customer load) with the usual 2006/42ce, but also to report the following rules/directives

"report" or "project second" the nomatives? ! ?

2006 / 95ce

Low voltage directive. If the system is powered (and if there is a motor it must be) it must also follow this directive. whose res, however, are already in 2006/42ce, then 2006/95ce should not be explicitly reported on the declaration of conformity of a machine.

2004/108/ce

electromagnetic compatibility. as you do not build electrical equipment, but mount an electrical component, it is worth the declaration of the engine builder, to attach to the technical file

cei en 60204-1:2006

safety of electrical equipment. Alternatively you can use 13849. this standard must follow the one who designs the machine as a whole, including electrical equipment. risk assessment must be multidisciplinary. The usual "I'm mechanical, I don't understand electrical wires" and "I'm electric, I know what I'm going to command" would be extinguished at the root.

uni iso 12100-1:2005
uni iso 12100-2:2005

"machine safety - general principles of design - risk assessment and risk reduction". It is a standard of type to...can be recalled, of course, but if the rules of type are applied by it could be superfluous.

in addition to declarations of conformity
1935/04/ce
2008/39/

What do you eat? I'm unprepared here.

Finally they require the manual (ok), but including risk analysis.

Well, I'd say, the manual must report the list of residual risks. the manual is not a document where it says "press the button and do this". point 1.7.4 of Annex I to the Machinery Directive explains in detail how to write a manual.

I asked:
- in our statement 2006/42ce we must also report the external norms possibly followed or is valid reasoning "the machine is certified, trust us and do not ask to know anything else"?

As mentioned, the declaration of conformity declares compliance with the rules. Do you have to tell what rules, otherwise what statement is?

- with regard to the manual (not technical file), do you have to understand risk analysis?

risk analysis no, only residual risks and any operational procedures


Anyway, since there's some confusion. .. why not explain in detail what this machine is?

 

[gerod]

good job fulvio!!! (at the steve jobs, all in lowercase)

but now we make some extra clarification!:biggrin:

machine with electric motor: I follow only 2006/42ce or even 2006/95ce.. ?

follow what is applicable to the object in question. European product directives are many and if you are inside the field of application of one or more you have to quote them with some precautions, as it said lightning for the lvd.

Let's go to dates.
if you put the dates of the rules within the declaration of conformity check that they are updated.
memory is used the 12100:2010 not the 12100-1 and 2 (then the speech of lightning).

1935 / 04 / EC
2008 / 39 / EC

Is it a food machine?
to be seen if on the field of application of the norm must be cited but I have never seen it in the declarations of conformity of machines for food use.

in our statement 2006/42ce we must also report the external norms possibly followed or is valid reasoning "the machine is certified ce, trust us and do not ask to know anything else"?

I never trust you and I can tell you that often in declarations of conformity you find everything and more, indeed, everything and less!

in relation to the manual (not technical dossier), it must include risk analysis

He responded to you.
But what I want to understand is the look of who does what.
If you provide the marked machine (be careful, machine not almost machine and therefore the declaration of conformity is drafted according to all. ii/a) and do not carry out the electrical picture (also the machine edge?) you must nevertheless provide the schemes so that those who realize it face according to your specifications.
in pennies: you are the only ones responsible for the machine and the quadrist/client will do according to your directives (schemes) and will declare the picture in accordance with what you requested.
"But I didn't know, I wasn't told."

Anyway, since there's some confusion. .. why not explain in detail what this machine is?

pure me seems!
a hello.

 

[Fulvio Romano]

good job fulvio!!! (at the steve jobs, all in lowercase)

but now we make some extra clarification!:biggrin:

always welcome, master!

But what I want to understand is the look of who does what.
If you provide the marked machine (be careful, machine not almost machine and therefore the declaration of conformity is drafted according to all. ii/a) and do not carry out the electrical picture (also the machine edge?) you must nevertheless provide the schemes so that those who realize it face according to your specifications.
in pennies: you are the only ones responsible for the machine and the quadrist/client will do according to your directives (schemes) and will declare the picture in accordance with what you requested.
"But I didn't know, I wasn't told."

exactly. What I said, too.
I work in a group of companies where my company deals with automation of machines designed and built by another company in the group. It is in human nature to look only at one's own garden, and I can assure you that there have been meetings only to clarify who does what, who does the specifications, who certifies and who assumes responsibility. It is not at all a simple speech, it is very delicate and you walk daily on the eggs.

 

[gerod]

It is not at all a simple speech, it is very delicate and you walk daily on the eggs.

... and I'm not sode!
:

 

[reggio]

Thank you! :
2 please, if you do not mind, try not to use acronyms like "res" "lvd" .. which create more doubts;p
3 thank you thank you thank you :d but go slowly with the explanations, otherwise I "float" ;p

However, since there is un po' di confusione...

...increased optimistic... :wink: I would say a lot.

Why not explain in detail what this machine is?

... eye that if you give me a finger, then I take taste and take all my arm, eh:wink:

... why not explain in detail what this machine is?

to answer this question and dissipate my other doubts, not to fill in the arguments, I opened this new post entitled:
"electric motor without control panel is machine or almost machine? "

In any case, the machine I'm talking about is a conveyor (which can be taped, rollers, chains, etc., but we should understand whether it is really machine or machine, but this is precisely the argument that I would like to unveil in the other post... [ok, sviscerato a parte le folli, son tutte macchine .. )
in questo caso è un trasportatore per il settore alimentare.

"report" or "project second" the nomatives? ! ?

already, you say, since you have to design according to some rules, why then shouldn't you indicate them? So, yes, in general the rules used should also be indicated, now it is a matter of understand which we have to apply and what not..

Low voltage directive. if the system is powered (and if there is the engine must be)

... uhm

But what I want to understand is the look of who does what.
If you provide the marked machine there (registered according to all ii/a) and do not run the electrical picture (also the machine edge?) you still have to provide the schemes so that those who realize it do it according to your specifications.
in pennies: you are the only ones responsible for the machine and the quadrist/client will do according to your directives (schemes) and will declare the picture in accordance with what you requested.
"But I didn't know, I wasn't told."

Do you have to? but even if we don't provide the electric picture? and not even the car edge?
but how could I know the working cycle and how and when my machine will be accessed and turned off inside a plant maybe controlled by customer plc? How could I supply the patterns you say?

whose res, however, are already in 2006/42ce, then 2006/95ce should not be explicitly reported on the declaration of conformity of a machine.

"res" essential safety requirements?

electromagnetic compatibility. as you do not build electrical equipment, but mount an electrical component, it is worth the declaration of the engine builder, to attach to the technical file
safety of electrical equipment.

therefore, to the supplier of the micro, proximity, etc. we ask the statement that will have to report the emc 2004/108/ce right? and the declaration of the supplier of the electric motor what will it contain? 2006/95ce + emc 2004/108/ce?

the declaration of the engine builder, to attach to the technical dossier safety of the electrical equipment.

therefore, even if we do not provide electrical system, framework and machine edge, only because we install one or more engines, one or more micro switches, one or more proximity we must also realize separately a technical safety dossier of electrical equipment?

Alternatively you can use 13849. this standard must follow the one who designs the machine as a whole, including electrical equipment. risk assessment must be multidisciplinary. The usual "I'm mechanical, I don't understand electrical wires" and "I'm electric, I know what I'm going to command" would be extinguished at the root.

.... in fact "I am mechanical, I don't understand electrical wires" i.e., I can tell you how to power the engine (220v or 400v - 50hz or 60hz), but more what should I say?

"machine safety - general principles of design - risk assessment and risk reduction". It is a standard of type to...can be recalled, of course, but if the rules of type are applied by it could be superfluous.

risk assessment &... I'll open a new post here.

What do you eat? I'm unprepared here.

... also here I need to open another post... from the analysis made these days, it seems that around the food there is great confusion

As mentioned, the declaration of conformity declares compliance with the rules. Do you have to tell what rules, otherwise what statement is?
risk analysis no, only residual risks and any operational procedures

right, at least this time is clear ;p

 

[gerod]

Allow me to suggest a course on the machine directive first because a forum is always a forum and the directive requires time and experience.
what has affirmed fulvio and I is the result of experience on the field.
Some of my statements are not mine, it is the directive that says it or guidelines.

It is not that by opening new posts on risk assessment or other topics you will find solutions to your questions ....
In my opinion you need a good book to start and experience.

just to make you understand something,
According to you a gate, designed to be motorized and controlled with remote control, without motorization and wiring is machine or not?

Give me a reasoned answer, don't randomly shoot.
Think about it
Hi.

 

[Fulvio Romano]

quoto what said by gerod.
useless to open so many threads, better to make a serious infarination, better if with a course. If there is no time, better be followed in an iter at least for the first car.

Moreover, it is urgent to identify the manufacturer. the law does not admit two manufacturers, one for the electrical stuff and one for the mechanical one. If so, the manufacturer's veins do what puts the machine in service.

 

[reggio]

Allow me to suggest a course on the machine directive first because a forum is always a forum

hello and thanks, every advice is welcome:wink:
at the course we are thinking seriously, we realize more and more that the "consultants" asked in the past probably were not the most... and we have never bothered to deepen, if you were closer I would have already contacted you:d

the idea was actually to try, with the help and patience to infarinate me a moment and then to face the most complex points with a consultant, I do not ask that qlc writes to me the manual and technical dossier here:tongue:

In my opinion you need a good book to start and experience.

A good book? Maybe. What advice?

just to make you understand something,
According to you a gate, designed to be motorized and controlled with remote control, without motorization and wiring is machine or not?
Give me a reasoned answer, don't randomly shoot.
Think about it
Hi.

ahia, you put me in trouble, and I am sure that there is the trabocchetto, cmq to reason as I would like, the gate is a piece of iron that does not move without a motor, so "take it so and a few stories, if then you put it on a balcony, falls and kills a Christian, poor him and c##i yours and in any case, when you have finished certified it by yourself"
instead, if they laugh at what you have already told me and what the 2006/42/ce reports, there is no escape, "if with that piece of iron, a qlc idiot can:
cut, drain, infiltrate, pinch, tangle, drown, ... a Christian, you maker must explain to him by thread and by sign how to look at him, lift him, handle him, connect him, ... what can do and what can not do" in short a little colored and paraphrasing samo pitagora we have seen that "all is machine" :frown:

... finally, I understand that we can't do an online course, but compared to the above questions, can you take away what doubt?

 

[reggio]

Moreover, it is urgent to identify the manufacturer. the law does not admit two manufacturers, one for the electrical stuff and one for the mechanical one. If so, the manufacturer's veins do what puts the machine in service.

but the identification for me is not so simple. . .
we make conveyors with unconnected electrical parts, these conveyors are purchased by customers who insert them into a larger plant, which will take care of extending the channel, which will have a general electric picture with plc that will command the motors of our conveyors and will control the ns switches and ns proximity... seen so who is the "manufacturer" of "what"?

Do you have to? but even if we don't provide the electric picture? and not even the car edge?
but how could I know the working cycle and how and when my machine will be accessed and turned off inside a plant maybe controlled by customer plc? How could I supply the patterns you say?

therefore, to the supplier of the micro, proximity, etc. we ask the statement that will have to report the emc 2004/108/ce right? and the declaration of the supplier of the electric motor what will it contain? 2006/95ce + emc 2004/108/ce?

therefore, even if we do not provide electrical system, framework and machine edge, only because we install one or more engines, one or more micro switches, one or more proximity we must also realize separately a technical safety dossier of electrical equipment?

.... in fact "I am mechanical, I don't understand electrical wires" i.e., I can tell you how to power the engine (220v or 400v - 50hz or 60hz), but more what should I say?

 

[gerod]

if you were closer I would have already contacted you:d

Well, isn't the distance the problem?
Lately I arrive until South Italy!!!:biggrin:

A good book? Maybe, what advice?

http://www.studiofonzar.com/blog/?p=1953He's my master! !

the idea was actually to try, with vs help and patience to infarinate me a moment and then face the most complex points with a consultant, I don't ask that qlc writes me the manual and technical dossier here

but how, ask us and then go to a consultant?? ?
Maybe you give him the job already done?? ? :biggrin:

the gate can be a machine or component. if those who build it also realize the pinion, the rack, the guides then will have to guarantee at least the mechanical safety. then if it's the blacksmith who only makes you the piece of iron I would say it's a component but if you think you sell it and tell the electrician to do the installation then you created a car.

ste things are quite delicate and guidelines often help you (sometimes mess you up).

As far as your machines are concerned, I would say that there is something to understand, analyze well and decide. on a forum we can not even make consultants, we say we give info.
Hi.

ps: thank you very much for agreeing with me.

 

[gerod]

but the identification for me is not so simple. . .
we make conveyors with unconnected electrical parts, these conveyors are purchased by customers who insert them into a larger plant, which will take care of extending the channel, which will have a general electric picture with plc that will command the motors of our conveyors and will control the ns switches and ns proximity... seen so who is the "manufacturer" of "what"?

you are the manufacturer of your machine (it is machine this, you cannot escape).
then there will be someone who will make the ce of the line (and also here who is to be defined first, contrattually), often the final user (I am going to take responsibility for others? ? ).
therefore 1 manufacturer for each machine. complex machines (= lines) will have 1 manufacturer too. It is not said that the two people are the same.
I bet I messed you up even more now??? :biggrin:

 

[reggio]

Well, isn't the distance the problem?
I've been coming to South Italy lately! ! !

:smile: bah, the last word is not said... My colleague in the meantime had already contacted an advisor recommended by an acquaintance, we must meet
next week to explain our needs, then we see how to continue. . .

http://www.studiofonzar.com/blog/?p=1953He's my master! !

ah, I saw, but how/where would you buy? on the page indicated there is no price rag or "compra quì" link ...?? ?

But how, ask us and then go to a co...[/QUOTE]Yeah. was that your purpose? :tongue:

 

[gerod]

da quihttp://ec.europa.eu/enterprise/sectors/mechanical/machinery/Find everything you need.
the guide line is also in Italian but I would always keep the translation in English.... sometimes there is some interpretation.

The book? you find it on the website tne and other technical sites, just do a search.
Hi.

 

[reggio]

da quihttp://ec.europa.eu/enterprise/sectors/mechanical/machinery/Find everything you need.

Thank you, I found this in Englishhttp://ec.europa.eu/enterprise/sect...inery/guide-appl-2006-42-ec-2nd-201006_en.pdf
Can you give me the link? (I noticed that the site only speaks uk-de-fr)

The book? find it on the website tne

Grazie, http://www.tne.it/pubblicazioni_altrivolumi_dett.php?id=13

 

[gerod]

if you click next to the word [3MB] - white icon - you will see the other versions including the one in ita.

 

[reggio]

if you click next to the word [3MB] - white icon - you will see the other versions including the one in ita.

Thank you... just open your eyes:redface:http://ec.europa.eu/enterprise/sect...inery/guide-appl-2006-42-ec-2nd-201006_it.pdf

 

[Fulvio Romano]

Well, isn't the distance the problem?
Lately I arrive until South Italy!!!:biggrin:

fino in terronia?!?
nooooooo! :finger:

 

[gerod]

fino in terronia?!?
nooooooo! :finger:

depends on the views!!!:biggrin: