mechanics piano

[meccan]

good morning to all, as a tesin at school I carry the mechanics of the piano, I had in mind to make a simulation of the movement of the mechanics of a key to the pc the problem is that the profs did not know how to tell me with what program you can do! I can use quite well solid edge, but I have the possibility to use other programs like catia solidworks etc., you know how to tell me what program you can do simulation? I mean something like this, I press the button and all the other organs move to the hammer that beats on the rope. I attach an image of mechanics

 

[cacciatorino]

Good morning to all, like tesina at school I carry piano mechanics

It should be good for any mechanical cad of a certain "prestige" so everyone you mentioned can do what you're looking for. If you can use solid edge go with that, the motion environment allows you to perform the animations you want to do. Maybe before you start verify that the motion environment is included in your installation.

 

[Fulvio Romano]

Forgive me... What do you want to simulate? because for a dynamic simulation, nothing less than adams.

If you just want to do the film, okay any cad as hunter says. it will be hard to shape the escapement. . .

 

[marcof]

it will be hard to shape the escapement. . .

quoto...
I have no idea what the appropriate programs are, but there is one that does not limit itself to moving the assemblies according to the usual constraints that leave a number of degrees of freedom to the various components.
it is necessary that inertias, frictions and springs of objects be computed as in reality, to reproduce the operation of the repetition lever, escapement (besides the hammer etc) that allow the double escapement, that is the possibility to repeat the note without completely lifting the buttonhttp://www.concertpitchpiano.com/animatedgrandaction.htmlhttp://islandpiano.com/ganim.htm#@meccan: beautiful tesina... Good luck!

@fulvio: according to me the attached pdf and this link will please you:http://www.pianophysics.com/ja/slide index.html

 

[Fulvio Romano]

I see that the "planists" on the forum increase...good!

I knew this thesis, of which I am lucky to know the author personally.. .

 

[maxopus]

That's a good exercise for everyone.

 

[gerod]

interesting topic!
Interesting thesis, I looked at it fast, I didn't read it and it intrigued me.[OT] a thesis in latex is always an excellent thesis!! ! [/OT]

 

[meccan]

Well what to say I thought answers like I have no idea how the mechanics of the plan functions etc. I was surprised! thank you all for the answers! then I with solid edge so draw all the pieces (I have them available) and make the asses. here there is no problem, after the difficult starts, made even more difficult by the fact that I have no idea what commands you use: I wanted to simulate the movements (even without double escape, it is not necessary) simply to see the key that strikes the damper bridge and the bridge, which begin to rise and move everything else until you arrive to the hammer that beats on the rope, to arrive here would be a lot, to represent the operation of the double escapement I do not care because it is complicated and I do not go to lose too many hours [CUT]......!!!! Is there any one who has any idea what commands should be used with solid edge? I don't need a guardian who follows me in everything, the program I learned to use it practically alone so I can handle it pretty well, I just need to understand what the right commands are to use, after I can arrange!

 

[gerod]

@maccan: but did you show up? I don't think so! ;-)
would be welcome.
Then I look forward to not exaggerating on statements! professors do their job and if they do it well then you don't have to despise!

your question is on solid edge then.
You should say that version you have and use the motion module for cinematics.
I never used it (although having it) because I found it very complicated.
I use sim wise (ex visual nastran) and I also simulated systems like yours.
but how long do you use solid edge?

 

[Er Presidente]

good morning to all, as a tesin at school I carry the mechanics of the piano, I had in mind to make a simulation of the movement of the mechanics of a key to the pc the problem is that the profs did not know how to tell me with what program you can do! I can use quite well solid edge, but I have the possibility to use other programs like catia solidworks etc., you know how to tell me what program you can do simulation? I mean something like this, I press the button and all the other organs move to the hammer that beats on the rope. I attach an image of mechanics

ussignur! just to crush a button!
But then the "culture" is serious robbery!
:smile:

p.s.: I am ecstatic!
:biggrin:

 

[meccan]

@gerod
I didn't introduce myself to the truth because I didn't even think I could find someone who could help me! As soon as I have time I introduce myself!
use solid edge v20, use it since last year!

 

[Exatem]

I just have time to meet. . .

? ? ?
the time you used to write this post is the same as you needed to present yourself.. .

 

[meccan]

? ? ?
the time you used to write this post is the same as you needed to present yourself.. .

Isn't there a section for presentations?

 

[Exatem]

Isn't there a section for presentations?

ready:http://www.cad3d.it/forum1/showthread.php?p=270265#post270265e benvenuto nel forum. :finger:

 

[marcof]

I wanted to simulate the movements (even without double escape, it is not necessary) simply to see the key that strikes the damper bridge and the bridge, which begin to rise and move everything else until you reach the hammer that beats on the rope

but are you sure you have clear the operation of the piano mechanics at the tail?
I ask you because from what you write it would seem that the movement of the mechanics of the hammer is connected and dependent, and it is not so.
dampers and hammers are two independent mechanics. the first is commanded by the tail of the key, the second by the pilot screw that is fixed roughly in the middle between the tail and the central fulcrum.
Besides the depreciation movement is delayed and the tail of the key performs a certain vacuum run before engaging the tsp of the depreciation lever, while the mechanics of the hammers did not run empty, or just lower the button the comic stand to rise and the rest accordingly. already that you are trying to use the correct teminology for the various parts of mechanics: I don't see the damper's bridge. .
In any case, as I wrote you, you cannot use a program that simply analyzes the constraints of the axis. is not a rigidly connected cinematic chain: from the hammer that hits the rope for inertia only if the speed with which it is lifted is sufficient.

represent the operation of the double escapement I do not care because it is complicated

Regardless of the fact that you don't want to illustrate the possibility of putting down the note without lifting the whole button, you still have to represent the operation of the escape lever, because it is precisely the one that lifts up to its maximum height the hammer that continues against the ropes.

 

[Fulvio Romano]

ussignur! just to crush a button!
But then the "culture" is serious robbery!
:smile:

p.s.: I am ecstatic!
:biggrin:

If I knew how much story is behind that mechanism... starting from the harpsichord, passing through the thorn and the clavicordo...then the piano and finally the piano. from a sound that seemed to beat with a bat of broom on a gate until reaching the king of concerts... :wink:

 

[Fulvio Romano]

but are you sure you have clear the operation of the piano mechanics at the tail?
I ask you because from what you write it would seem that the movement of the mechanics of the hammer is connected and dependent, and it is not so.
dampers and hammers are two independent mechanics. the first is commanded by the tail of the key, the second by the pilot screw that is fixed roughly in the middle between the tail and the central fulcrum.
Besides the depreciation movement is delayed and the tail of the key performs a certain vacuum run before engaging the tsp of the depreciation lever, while the mechanics of the hammers did not run empty, or just lower the button the comic stand to rise and the rest accordingly. already that you are trying to use the correct teminology for the various parts of mechanics: I don't see the damper's bridge. .
In any case, as I wrote you, you cannot use a program that simply analyzes the constraints of the axis. is not a rigidly connected cinematic chain: from the hammer that hits the rope for inertia only if the speed with which it is lifted is sufficient.



Regardless of the fact that you don't want to illustrate the possibility of putting down the note without lifting the whole button, you still have to represent the operation of the escape lever, because it is precisely the one that lifts up to its maximum height the hammer that continues against the ropes.

Yes, indeed. Meccan, I didn't talk about the double escape, present only in the tail pianos, and not all. but the escapement has all the pianos, otherwise the ropes would not vibrate because they would be damped by the hammer himself.

 

[maxopus]

but are you sure you have clear the operation of the piano mechanics at the tail?
I ask you because from what you write it would seem that the movement of the mechanics of the hammer is connected and dependent, and it is not so.
dampers and hammers are two independent mechanics. the first is commanded by the tail of the key, the second by the pilot screw that is fixed roughly in the middle between the tail and the central fulcrum.
Besides the depreciation movement is delayed and the tail of the key performs a certain vacuum run before engaging the tsp of the depreciation lever, while the mechanics of the hammers did not run empty, or just lower the button the comic stand to rise and the rest accordingly. already that you are trying to use the correct teminology for the various parts of mechanics: I don't see the damper's bridge. .
In any case, as I wrote you, you cannot use a program that simply analyzes the constraints of the axis. is not a rigidly connected cinematic chain: from the hammer that hits the rope for inertia only if the speed with which it is lifted is sufficient.



Regardless of the fact that you don't want to illustrate the possibility of putting down the note without lifting the whole button, you still have to represent the operation of the escape lever, because it is precisely the one that lifts up to its maximum height the hammer that continues against the ropes.

How much technology and history behind the piano key... is much more sophisticated than I could imagine, it is wonderful.
I think the key is simpler... is it?

 

[meccan]

marcof, on a book that I have the dirt lever they call it damping bridge (it is a little old!!) , however I have clear how it works, I also split it with all the working components, I wrote that the key hits the damping bridge (it hits dirt) and the bridge because the key hits first the bridge (I wanted to write pilot but didn't want to be too specific. Sorry I wasn't clear!
So, my profes don't know how to do it, a friend of mine who came out of the same school my 2 years ago told me that you can do it with solid edge, he knows how to do it but he doesn't have time because of the work, he had the same prof that last year taught me to use solid edge but now he's retired! Now I'm drawing all the pieces, I think I'm gonna end up in the morning if I don't get too many questions!
I said that I am not interested in representing the double escape because on the day of the orals I will show it with the physical model, so I am not going to spend hours trying to represent the possibility to repeat the notes without lifting the whole button, then if you succeed better but it is not my main goal! :smile:

 

[marcof]

So my profes don't know how to do it, a friend of mine who came out of the same school my 2 years ago told me that you can do it with solid edge, he knows how to do it but he doesn't have time for work,

I repeat: with solidedge, solidwoks or any other mechanical cad without specific application for the study of physical phenomena of moving bodies, therefore also taking into account gravity, that simulation Don't do it.If, however, your purpose and create a complex set in motion and you agree (very) with if you can simulate very approximately the first part of the mechanical lifting, but you have to bind the head of the tangent escapement to the hammer roller, and this obviously limits the hammer race to the only position of the maximum height. You can't show how to hit the ropes.
I add that the loop of the escapement slips along the roller then abandons it. with traditional bonds of solidedge it is likely that you will find yourself with some too much bond.

In short, made in that way is a rather roasted simulation, and if by misfortune one of the professors tricks or the outside commissioner knows how the mechanics of a piano works you are beautiful that fucked:redface:
fake for fake, so much worth doing an animation with 3dmax

At the limit you could use working model2d, which I think is free for students.

instead it would be interesting to really simulate the movement of the mechanics and get a nice diagram that relates the speed of lowering the button with the corresponding kinetic energy of the hammer that affects the ropes, passing from a pp a ffff :wink:

but in practice, what do you have to get from your 3d model? it is not yet understood whether it is animation of the movement or its simulation... are two different concepts

p.s. apart from the difficulty of modeling components (which could however be schematic) the real simulation maybe you could do it with algodoo (ex phun that was freeware)http://www.algodoo.com/wiki/home