personal project selection

[MassiVonWeizen]

This thing about the folds is a beautiful bitch and I have to understand it well. Does the program based on the chosen material have a minimum calculation in this regard?

I give you a very basic explanation:
as I wrote those to calculate for deformation, I explain to follow are not unique values, but depend on tati factors and each workshop has its own that derive from sampling
when bending a sheet you have a structure deformation and a return or elastic release of the fold.
in practice if I design a sheet folded at 90° in reality, for elasticity of the material, once the press has created the angle you have a spring effect that opens or closes the angle (of a few tenths of degree)
when bending the material undergoes tensions that deform it i.e. alter its size; For example, a 90° l whose sides are 100mm can bend a 1mm shrinkage, which means that in drawing the flat sheet to be cut I will have to make it longer than 1mm, then 101mm, so that then bending it has as final result 100mm.
to come to your question if the software allows you to calculate these values; the answer is no because they are data made ad hoc by every specialized workshop. if you contact a workshop and give you the pick-up values then you can insert them into the parameters of the sheet creation to get the development.

as told to you interest the final result, as the previous example that the 100mm per side because it is what you use to build the houses; if you give the final file to the workshop will be this to calculate the flat geometry to be cut so as to ensure the final result

 

[TECNOMODEL]

You were referring to the discussion of the tank I imagine. . .
I noticed that when you start making a speech a bit technical/analytical come the usual cad cellarers that solve everything with "but we look so, let's put it so more or less, we always did so ..."

no one has said such things in that discussion, it has been said that to set up an ultrasound analysis for certain products does not apply the candle.

p.s. that "cad cellars" reported to professionals with decades of work behind it could also be offensive. . . .

 

[MassiVonWeizen]

Guys, let's not bring here other threads' begaes

 

[Fulvio Romano]

in the last post of other threads it has been learned that an engineer must design "a caxxo" (other user quote), and that the analytical approach to design is a waste of time because to be understood only as a method to show others that you have longer (other user quote)

the user is the same:

set a partial derivative system costs salary hours. set a fem costs hours of salary and amortization of expensive programs and computers. at the end here is a plate (a side of the reservoir) bound on three sides that should not spread:
- the pressure distribution is known, the resulting therefore also
- considering what costs the iron, I make a supported-supported beam that resists a concentrated load in halfway equal to the resulting
- I find the profile on the market immediately higher
- I'm a caxxo containment cage with that profile.

Did I spend a little? Yes
Did I do it soon? Yes
Does it work? Yes

Rough and fast. Isn't that the engineer's work? or avoid getting into details when these are not necessary?

(*)
"Caxxo" in engineering terms of course. You know what I mean...

I am not saying that in general this is the best attitude for the development of new technologies. I'm saying that wasting energy for a water tank goes against engineering practice.

and a house is worth as a water tank.

 

[Fulvio Romano]

I entered this forum at the tip of feet and in the most total clarity and humility on those that are my technical knowledge about it. I never said to put myself on the same level as those who studied us years. I never said that just a tutorial on the internet to have these knowledge that so many thousand.

once we had one who wanted to design a new engine and made the models with tin paper to have confirmation on the volume of the blast chamber because with malcelata spocchia did not trust the calculations of the cad.
ok, insulting it can be considered by some as good and right thing. There's no engineering coming from day to day.

here we have one who has a discreet practical experience in assembling pcs and would like to improve a product by solving practical problems. in extreme synthesis he wants to make the designer, not the designer or engineer. There is no need to warm up so much and fear for the future of his profession.
the more you see the road uphill and the more you decide to push on the pedals.
I can only give you my best compliments and a big one. This thread will be filled with pearls, you will only have to clean them out of everything you will find in the middle.

 

[Alex_M]

@massivonweizenYou explained it in a way that a child would understand it too! Thank you very much!
So, if I understand correctly, I have to do the file exactly as much as I need, and then it's gonna take care of the company based on its "tolerances" to fix it all right? or do I have to give them and calculate them in the file that I will deliver?
@fulvio RomanThank you so much!

p.s. talking to an architect advised me to use inventor because with the cad it would be very complex having to work in 2d one piece at a time and without having, rightly, a design base could be ostic. with inventor, made the 3d and made the 2d, I will have a precise and detailed result as a work with autocad? (I hope to have explained, and to have understood what he told me)

 

[TECNOMODEL]

@massivonweizenYou explained it in a way that a child would understand it too! Thank you very much!
So, if I understand correctly, I have to do the file exactly as much as I need, and then it's gonna take care of the company based on its "tolerances" to fix it all right? or do I have to give them and calculate them in the file that I will deliver?
@fulvio RomanThank you so much!

p.s. talking to an architect advised me to use inventor because with the cad it would be very complex having to work in 2d one piece at a time and without having, rightly, a design base could be ostic. with inventor, made the 3d and made the 2d, I will have a precise and detailed result when a work with autocad? (I hope to have explained, and to have understood what he told me)

more precise, because you can verify encumbrances, interferences etc on the whole project and detailed as with autocad because inventor is born for the whole design process, therefore 2d included, and has all the necessary tools.

 

[Alex_M]

more precise, because you can verify encumbrances, interferences etc on the whole project and detailed as with autocad because inventor is born for the whole design process, therefore 2d included, and has all the necessary tools.

Wait. Are you telling me that with inventor I would have a 2d (of the individual pieces I mean) more accurate than what I could do with autocad?

 

[MassiVonWeizen]

No, I think he's telling you that with inventor you do a more precise job in terms of "design" than doing it with autocad.

regarding your question

So, if I understand correctly, I have to do the file exactly as much as I need, and then it's gonna take care of the company based on its "tolerances" to fix it all right? or I have to give them and calculate them in the file that I will deliver

with the term tolerance means a dimensional or geometric deviation within which a measure must be taken to be accepted. in reality there is no perfect measure to design, but will always have a difference can go from microm (automous field for example) to centimeters (building field) to kilometers (nautical field); . is the designer to establish this tolerance according to the precision of his project
an example that helps to understand the concept of tolerance:
I have our famous l 100mm per side; the model and manage the project with this measure but I know that to make his dirty work, which consists in making reinforcement to the box of the case, can be good even if the sides are 102mm or 98mm; to the folder I will say that the theoretical measure is 100 with a tolerance of 2mm more or less (writing 100 ±2).
what instead calculates the bending machine is called withdrawal or extension and you do not need to know to develop the project unless you also want to have fun in drawing the shape of the folded sheet or that you need to process particular geometries.

 

[Alex_M]

No, I think he's telling you that with inventor you do a more precise job in terms of "design" than doing it with autocad.

I was pretty sure of that. the 2d of inventor compared to auocad is the same or would I have more tools with the 2d of autocad?

regarding your question

with the term tolerance means a dimensional or geometric deviation within which a measure must be taken to be accepted. in reality there is no perfect measure to design, but will always have a difference can go from microm (automous field for example) to centimeters (building field) to kilometers (nautical field); . is the designer to establish this tolerance according to the precision of his project
an example that helps to understand the concept of tolerance:
I have our famous l 100mm per side; the model and manage the project with this measure but I know that to make his dirty work, which consists in making reinforcement to the box of the case, can be good even if the sides are 102mm or 98mm; to the folder I will say that the theoretical measure is 100 with a tolerance of 2mm more or less (writing 100 ±2).

For tolerance, I felt bad, but in error you made me think... If, taking your example, I need l100 naturally I want the least tolerance possible... What does this depend on?

what instead calculates the bending machine is called withdrawal or extension and you do not need to know to develop the project unless you also want to have fun in drawing the shape of the folded sheet or that you need to process particular geometries.

Of particular geometries I do not think I have, then if in case I need to see how to deal with the problem.
so I will have to make the piece exactly of the measure I want and with the folds at the exact point where they should come and the rest thinks the right bending machine?


Sorry for the myriad of questions but being all new is a bit like orienting in the ocean! Although it is incredibly fascinating and fun all this!

 

[MassiVonWeizen]

in autocad you would have technically more tools, but in fact they would be useless in inventor because the projections are done automatically and you do not have to draw them you line by line.

It is not true that it serves the least tolerance possible. In fact, it is a wrong concept because tolerance indicates a margin within which you have to stand. Therefore there may be a narrow margin or a wide margin or the fact that there is no need to establish a margin. the optimal size is that which lies in the middle of this margin because it means that you are not close to the allowed limit. (We see if later I can find or make some practical and real examples).
know that tolerances impose and where, is the profession of the designer. as well as knowing the type of material to use, the type of necessary processing, the finishes of this last.

 

[Alex_M]

in autocad you would have technically more tools, but in fact they would be useless in inventor because the projections come automatically and you do not have to draw them you line by line.

I'm a little lost. You talk about 3d right? I was only talking about drawing 2d.
I just did a couple of exercises on the inventor sheet and I have to say that it seems quite intuitive. At least for now... My question was whether it would be better to get the 2d from autocad or not...

It is not true that it serves the least tolerance possible. In fact, it is a wrong concept because tolerance indicates a margin within which you have to stand. Therefore there may be a narrow margin or a wide margin or the fact that there is no need to establish a margin. the optimal size is that which lies in the middle of this margin because it means that you are not close to the allowed limit. (We see if later I can find or make some practical and real examples).
know that tolerances impose and where, is the profession of the designer. as well as knowing the type of material to use, the type of necessary processing, the finishes of this last.

Perhaps with some example would be a little simpler, for me of course!

 

[TECNOMODEL]

No, I think he's telling you that with inventor you do a more precise job in terms of "design" than doing it with autocad.

.

exactly what I meant.
if you do the project in inventor autocad is useless because the design you make it in 3d and below the puts in the table to make the pieces build.

 

[MassiVonWeizen]

I'm a little lost. You talk about 3d right? I was only talking about drawing 2d.

made the 3d you have practically also the 2d because the projections are extracted automatically by 3d, and being a parametric cad if you change something suits the views of the 2d is updated.

Perhaps with some example would be a little simpler, for me of course!

It is here that the speech comes out that certain things must be studied and cannot go to tentons. However I try to explain better the concept of tolerance.
tolerance has already been said to be an area of margin, dimensional or geometric, which is assigned to an entity. This tolerance declares how much I can afford to move from the ideal measure, we call it theoretical zero, because it has to be maintained the functionality of the entity in its context.
but this tolerance serves to ensure interchangeability with other equal entities; If I make a pin that must be assembled in wool or in belgium with a cylinder made in canada or in congo I must be sure that the assembly is always correct even if I have to rotate these components among them.
to do this, each component has a standard measure; knowing that the theoretical zero does not exist is assigned a tolerance. This is the concept at the base of tolerance.
Start reading somethingDismac. unipg.it/common_files/drawing/_8_dimensional tolerances.pdf
http://www.edutecnica.it/meccanica/tolleranze/tolleranze.htmhttp://www.federica.unina.it/ingegn...triale/tolleranze-dimensionali-parte-seconda/but if you are looking for the forum you will find it in bizzeffe of discussions that treat the topic

 

[TECNOMODEL]

simplifying a little, keep in mind that more tolerances you put and more precise are the more the cost of the particular increases.
for this they must be chosen with knowledge of cause.

 

[welcome to the machine]

I'm sorry, where do you buy the case?
If I tried to assemble an evolved pc, as I'm sure he knows how to do our friend very well, (in his post he talks about fluids going through the house, and I imagine water coolers, pcs from fear..), I would definitely explode and I'm sure I couldn't learn how to do it by following tutorials on the web.

I was initially among those who have it, for what can be worth, encouraged and at the same time curtailed on some aspects that will be found to afforn. However, by going forward it seems to me that its problems will come well before the definition of plastic deformations or tolerances etc.

It seems to me very qualified to make the difference between 2d and 3d well understood, because it is evident to all that there has been a little troubled on this point that, I think, we had given everyone as a precondition.

with andrea (whose ability to learn, be clear, I absolutely do not want to diminish ) we must take for granted nothing, just as should not do who would want to explain to me how to mount a pc.
if in the end he will show us the result of his commitment, we will all be happy to congratulate him, but the best and competent ones on the specific subject, they will really have to give him a good hand.

I let the sheets develop them from the sheet metal, as I said already, so I can only say where to wait for the problems, not how to solve them, and I am of little help, but I will follow with interest.

I want the super-case too!

: the pin assembled in belgium with a congo cylinder comes from your ancient Belgian congo experiences?

 

[MassiVonWeizen]

: the pin assembled in belgium with a congo cylinder comes from your ancient belgian congo experiences?

no, it was a fortuitous coincidence in entering 4 continentally different states.
but to those who could interest i highly recommend the congo book of van reybrouck. treats the history of the country from the first colonizations to the power struggles of the various rulers/dictators analyzing the world influence it had. i didn't even know it was an important scenario in world war ii. . .

 

[TECNOMODEL]

i deliberately wrote in the opening of post "simplifying", a little because i wrote from the phone and quickly, a little because to address the speech of the choice of tolerances risks becoming more a book than a post.
i just wanted to make it clear that the idea of always putting tight tolerances is wrong because "i need l100 of course i want the least tolerance possible". if that 100 has to enter a 101 seat, it makes no sense to put a 0.1 tolerance.
if that 100 is instead a tree on which a toothed wheel should be placed then a tolerance of cents must be used, as well as for the hole.
i see that now the thread has taken several directions, i would recommend to our friend, since the answers to his initial question has had them, to open a specific thread for his project, where he can ask specific questions related to the same and get targeted answers.

 

[Fulvio Romano]

I'm a little lost. You talk about 3d right? I was only talking about drawing 2d.
I just did a couple of exercises on the inventor sheet and I have to say that it seems quite intuitive. At least for now... My question was whether it would be better to get the 2d from autocad or not...

I also put my two cents because we are probably mixing too many arguments. who handles them normally follows the speech, but maybe those who are at first arms end up walking on the ears.

you are doing an operation that must be divided at least in the following stages:
1. basic project (dimensions, functions, etc.).
2. detail project (where for example decide where to put the screws and in which points to make the folds)
3. executive project (where you define technological parameters for realization. discharges, retreats, etc.)

The first two points are up to you. the third is normally borne by the third party who realizes the artifact (which does not mean handmade). It is very rare, even in advanced professional contexts, that the same company realizes all three points. this happens only in the realities that have the internal mechanical workshop.

to be able to make the "project", which in this case would call "drawing" so as not to touch the ribbing of those who love to distinguish the social classes of technicians, you have two possibilities:

- 3d drawings. is what you normally do with complex objects (but not necessarily). In this way, pass the term, draw directly a three-dimensional thing. there are two approaches: top-down when you start drawing the axieme and then details away details, or bottom-up when drawing the components and then "assembly" them in 3d.
Drawing in 3d you have the advantage (that with abuse of language had been called "precision") of being able to work with objects that resemble much to what you will then see realized. you will see the incastris, the correspondences of passing holes and threads of two different components, any interference between objects.
the passage from 3d to 2d executed by software is semi-automatic. decide that you see how to use, where to dissect, etc. and the software automatically generates a 2d that you can then edit by adding annotations or details.
in general 3d design increases operational complexity and reduces imagination effort.

- drawings in 2d. draws directly the representation of what you want to achieve. both in the assemblies, and in the details, if you make a mistake in the sense of uncompatible views between them the sw does not help you because it does not have knowledge of the real object you are representing. in general the design in 2d reduces the operational complexity because it is like using a tecnigraph, but increases the imagination effort.


autocad, draftsight, librecad, etc. do 2d and little 3d
inventor, solidedge, catia, etc. make 3d and little 2d (but this only because not necessary).

for speech tolerances instead, imagine buying you two hams. cut slices and come 210g. "What do I do, I leave?" would tell you the cold meat. You can't cut 200,000 grams of ham, you should split the atom. the concept of tolerances is the same.
If you need to draw a pin that fits into a hole, the tolerance must be "straight". too big would not enter, too small would not be set up. If you need to draw the shelves to put in the garage the tolerance must (not "can", but "must") be "larga". a few millimeters of error in fact do not involve a loss of functionality, vice versa wanting to realize a shelving in tolerance "straight" would mean, for example, to cut the shelves to numerical control instead of distellated to pack. and the cost is definitely different.

 

[Alex_M]

I'm sorry for the absence... Full morning!
@welcome to the machine

If I tried to assemble an evolved pc, as I'm sure he knows how to do our friend very well, (in his post he talks about fluids going through the house, and I imagine water coolers, pcs from fear..), I would definitely explode and I'm sure I couldn't learn how to do it by following tutorials on the web.

we say that the project is quite ambitious, and efficiently I have always and only talked about a house... will be a watercooling system of 4 560 mm mountain radiators put in series with borosilicate glass tubes and more pumps with 3 cylindrical glass tanks enclosed in an aluminum cage! double video card, cavette covered in fabric, etc. etc... a little particular system!
I actually started with hours and hours of tutorials... sure to the first assembly "real" cold sweat! :roflmao:

I was initially among those who have it, for what can be worth, encouraged and at the same time curtailed on some aspects that will be found to afforn. However, by going forward it seems to me that its problems will come well before the definition of plastic deformations or tolerances etc.

It seems to me very qualified to make the difference between 2d and 3d well understood, because it is evident to all that there has been a little troubled on this point that, I think, we had given everyone as a precondition.

with andrea (whose ability to learn, be clear, I absolutely do not want to diminish ) we must take for granted nothing, just as should not do who would want to explain to me how to mount a pc.
if in the end he will show us the result of his commitment, we will all be happy to congratulate him, but the best and competent ones on the specific subject, they will really have to give him a good hand.

I let the sheets develop them from the sheet metal, as I said already, so I can only say where to wait for the problems, not how to solve them, and I am of little help, but I will follow with interest.

I want the super-case too!

In fact, with me, nothing must be taken for granted because I am undoubtedly throwing myself into something at the moment totally obscure! and I thank you very much for the patience you have! the concept between 2d and 3d begins to have a little light even if I have a million questions, and I will certainly need a hand from you several times! then in the end it is obvious that I will make you participate... It seems like the least cabbage!
I'm an alessandro... That's why I took a second longer to figure out who was going! :roflmao:
p.p.s. we're in the lazio both... the super houses whenever you want!
@tecnomodel

I deliberately wrote in the opening of post "simplifying", a little because I wrote from the phone and quickly, a little because to address the speech of the choice of tolerances risks becoming more a book than a post.
I just wanted to make it clear that the idea of always putting tight tolerances is wrong because "I need l100 of course I want the least tolerance possible". If that 100 has to enter a 101 seat, it makes no sense to put a 0.1 tolerance.
If that 100 is instead a tree on which a toothed wheel should be placed then a tolerance of cents must be used, as well as for the hole.
I see that now the thread has taken several directions, I would recommend to our friend, since the answers to his initial question has had them, to open a specific thread for his project, where he can ask specific questions related to the same and get targeted answers.

the "tolerance" speech is very clear to me! Actually there are points, such as the holes for the screws of the motherboard, which I must be very precise, others where tolerance can be a little softer! It's just that I'd like everything to go exactly as a drawing. But I understand that it can't be! I have to put the tolerances in the drawing right? so that who realizes it knows how "soft" can be.... I am not yet very clear the question of the calculation of deformation of the wound... If I have to calculate it or the thiefist thinks about it! But one step at a time... Maybe in a while I will make a general summary! Anyway, what bothers me so much, many houses I assembled, even high-end models, all this precise is not!
@fulvio Roman

you are doing an operation that must be divided at least in the following stages:
1. basic project (dimensions, functions, etc.).
2. detail project (where for example decide where to put the screws and in which points to make the folds)
3. executive project (where you define technological parameters for realization. discharges, retreats, etc.)

The first two points are up to you. the third is normally borne by the third party who realizes the artifact (which does not mean handmade). It is very rare, even in advanced professional contexts, that the same company realizes all three points. this happens only in the realities that have the internal mechanical workshop.

to be able to make the "project", which in this case would call "drawing" so as not to touch the ribbing of those who love to distinguish the social classes of technicians, you have two possibilities:

- 3d drawings. is what you normally do with complex objects (but not necessarily). In this way, pass the term, draw directly a three-dimensional thing. there are two approaches: top-down when you start drawing the axieme and then details away details, or bottom-up when drawing the components and then "assembly" them in 3d.
Drawing in 3d you have the advantage (that with abuse of language had been called "precision") of being able to work with objects that resemble much to what you will then see realized. you will see the incastris, the correspondences of passing holes and threads of two different components, any interference between objects.
the passage from 3d to 2d executed by software is semi-automatic. decide that you see how to use, where to dissect, etc. and the software automatically generates a 2d that you can then edit by adding annotations or details.
in general 3d design increases operational complexity and reduces imagination effort.

- drawings in 2d. draws directly the representation of what you want to achieve. both in the assemblies, and in the details, if you make a mistake in the sense of uncompatible views between them the sw does not help you because it does not have knowledge of the real object you are representing. in general the design in 2d reduces the operational complexity because it is like using a tecnigraph, but increases the imagination effort.

very clear... thank you very much!