ral

[TECNOMODEL]

That's right... we're at the point... meritocracy.
that in Italy it has deliberately passed on in the second floor if not canceled, implementing a policy of commodification of the worker, equated in substance to a commodity or better to a generic worker.
all with the tacit and conscious blessing of various unions and associations, which have always seen with suspicion a healthy and natural economic reward of skills, and have pushed towards the wage cages dictated by the famous "livelli". ..as if the aunity always goes hand in hand with the skills and the desire to do.

levels and seniority, however, are two distinct and unrelated things, although often by workers we see a demand for level increase motivated by the many years spent in the company.
For the rest, I agree with you, although I think the unions have had little "colp" in all this but they did their job, trying to protect especially the weakest fascies of the workers.
then that all this has been done well or badly is all other speech that exulates from this thread.

 

[Marco9669]

I see 2 possibilities:
- you deleted your previous message you're referring to
-write in the forum with two identities.
Which one?

3 wrong la or con la a

 

[stevie]

Mechanical engineer designer. I omitted mechanical because rather implicit. I mean a job from ut.

from what they say to me even at the end of career you hardly go beyond the classics 35-40k, unless you take assignments from painting or executive

 

[Polymar]

absolutely not true, I find myself with a heral definitely higher than the one just mentioned. the motivation is simple, I manage to 360° the role of the designer, that is design, calculations, simulations, industrialization, manual, carpentry, fusion and finally relationships with suppliers in contact with purchases. when we start with the production of new products, egg figures of 10/15/20k€. I'd say my heral's earned. No one gives.

 

[MarcelloArz]

in fact I said that people indispensable for the survival of the company are paid more. However, the average is around 35-40k at most.
In short, I would do that according to the figure therefore based on experience and according to the requirements you have a minimum fixed sum. exactly if one wanted to hire a mechanical designer then for each extra request he should get some money. and with additional skills I mean any uncommon competence with ordinary people and therefore English, French, caty, distinct base, simulation, management together. .I suspect any knowledge must have a price. because it is right that it is. If I do cam and cad simulations it is true that I am in the office but it is also true that I am much more worthy than one who only makes tables. you don't need 1000 levels, eh, just say:
candidate who has the diploma takes minimum tot;
candidate with diploma and with English b1 takes minimum tot+ other;
etc. etc.
It is not a new thing, eh, we engineers who immediately take the 5s at the end of the logic is that. would only be to generalize on skills. Otherwise we only go towards devaluation of skills. This is not fair to me! merit is important! a person does not describe himself with a graduate, not a graduate, but with the set of experiences he has intrinsic. So if for example a company is very selective in talks and demands huge requirements because people always have to accent the minimum from ccnl? go for a ride in today's job ads as a designer and you will realize that the requirements are not stringent but more! Therefore if companies ask for the perfect people, who have a lot of features do not understand why we cannot find a way to make them evaluate. Knowing English is not a normal thing, I know, but companies only hire if you know English, but then why do I still have the least of ccnl? 5s is if I'm a graduate right? Well but if I'm a graduate and I know French, English and I have 5 years of experience then I have to take more than one other that doesn't have these features...but basically it happens to see them both in 5s. I mean that. It is necessary to reward the commitment and with this I mean both for the university and for the career and sacrifices that a person does during his life and the current ccnl rewards only those who graduate, others if they see it in private with the company. the problem however is that the unions no longer exist and the companies have strong arm on the employees.

 

[stevie]

trite speech and retrition of which has been discussed more and more times
at the base of everything is the law demand-off... aspiring workers and few places available, and the result is wage compression, demansionment, emotionalization of skills, etc. etc.
then consider that Italian companies are not that they ship in gold... with fiscal pressure over 60% and a demential bureaucracy is already almost a miracle that there is someone who has remained to do business.

 

[cacciatorino]

in fact I said that people indispensable for the survival of the company are paid more. However, the average is around 35-40k at most.
In short, I would do that according to the figure therefore based on experience and according to the requirements you have a minimum fixed sum. exactly if one wanted to hire a mechanical designer then for each extra request he should get some money. and with additional skills I mean any uncommon competence with ordinary people and therefore English, French, caty, distinct base, simulation, management together. .I suspect any knowledge must have a price. because it is right that it is. If I do cam and cad simulations it is true that I am in the office but it is also true that I am much more worthy than one who only makes tables. you don't need 1000 levels, eh, just say:
candidate who has the diploma takes minimum tot;
candidate with diploma and with English b1 takes minimum tot+ other;
etc. etc.
It is not a new thing, eh, we engineers who immediately take the 5s at the end of the logic is that. would only be to generalize on skills. Otherwise we only go towards devaluation of skills. This is not fair to me! merit is important! a person does not describe himself with a graduate, not a graduate, but with the set of experiences he has intrinsic. So if for example a company is very selective in talks and demands huge requirements because people always have to accent the minimum from ccnl? go for a ride in today's job ads as a designer and you will realize that the requirements are not stringent but more! Therefore if companies ask for the perfect people, who have a lot of features do not understand why we cannot find a way to make them evaluate. Knowing English is not a normal thing, I know, but companies only hire if you know English, but then why do I still have the least of ccnl? 5s is if I'm a graduate right? Well but if I'm a graduate and I know French, English and I have 5 years of experience then I have to take more than one other that doesn't have these features...but basically it happens to see them both in 5s. I mean that. It is necessary to reward the commitment and with this I mean both for the university and for the career and sacrifices that a person does during his life and the current ccnl rewards only those who graduate, others if they see it in private with the company. the problem however is that the unions no longer exist and the companies have strong arm on the employees.

Have you ever heard of super-minimums, awards, corporate benefits, additional levels? ccnl defines the minimum levels, but nothing prohibits the company to assign an extra pay if you want.

 

[MassiVonWeizen]

the specific skills must be managed internally to the company.
with your speech I company that needs an engineer, but I don't care that he knows catia, the French, the vba language I leave you home because I would find myself to give you a pay that I wouldn't give.
in addition to the fact that between writing skills on the resume and showing that they are real there passes; as it said guzzanti/venditti so'boni all put in writing

 

[Polymar]

in addition to the fact that between writing skills on the resume and showing that they are real there passes.in fact most cv are fakes

 

[Lettore espatriato]

..... go for a ride in today's job ads as a designer and you will realize that the requirements are not stringent but more! therefore if companies ask for the perfect people, who have a lot of features.......

This is another factor, which has little to do with skills.

some (many/poor ...boh ...) times the companies, especially if big and international, are held (mandate/spinte/invogliate...boh2) to publish a job search for so many reasons, but they already have in mind the profile of the person they would like to hire (sometimes because it's a "internal suit", maybe a consultant who after 15 years would like to be a good company, sometimes

sometimes they also have in mind name and surname.

and I'm not talking about illegal practices, only that in so many "subjective" aspects, "characteristic" (as has already been said elsewhere for the definition of pay ) to put the right person in the house, someone prefers to put other "objective" aspects.

So it is normal that in the selection then there are those who make the description "bright" to the candidate who has in mind . with the result of seeming "unreachable" for an outside.

 

[MassiVonWeizen]

in addition to the fact that between writing skills on the resume and showing that they are real there passes.in fact most cv are fakes

More than anything else I think there is an excess self-assessment problem, we have had some examples on the forum.
this inability is called dunning-kruger effect

 

[Polymar]

really interesting this new word ... googlatela and do "images", will appear many beautiful graphics, similar to cartoons. What to say, even today I learned something! :

 

[MassiVonWeizen]

would be interesting. @ marcelloarz make an example of how this assessment would be imposed.
that is, if you know English spoken at1 +50€, level b1+30, b2+20 but if it is technical/commercial specialized +10 (and takes as the b1 that will piss to death); you know catia excellently +60, you know it so +30, you do not know how to shape but you know how to make us macro without even having to test it +100, I comosco the modeling with catia but you do not know what you are modeling -30; you know perfectly German and the yielding values of the various steel+200, you do not know how to explain to a supplier of the deep veneto that uses only the dialect that special armonic steel with the

 

[MarcelloArz]

the specific skills must be managed internally to the company.
with your speech I company that needs an engineer, but I don't care that he knows catia, the French, the vba language I leave you home because I would find myself to give you a pay that I wouldn't give.
in addition to the fact that between writing skills on the resume and showing that they are real there passes; as it said guzzanti/venditti so'boni all put in writing

I didn't think about it. You're right

 

[MarcelloArz]

would be interesting. @ marcelloarz make an example of how this assessment would be imposed.
that is, if you know English spoken at1 +50€, level b1+30, b2+20 but if it is technical/commercial specialized +10 (and takes as the b1 that will piss to death); you know catia excellently +60, you know it so +30, you do not know how to shape but you know how to make us macro without even having to test it +100, I comosco the modeling with catia but you do not know what you are modeling -30; you know perfectly German and the yielding values of the various steel+200, you do not know how to explain to a supplier of the deep veneto that uses only the dialect that special armonic steel with the

I didn't mean any unsolicited requirements and skills. what I wanted to say is that if the top job seeks candidates with more skills then it is right to correspond them something more for each satisfied requirement. if I have 100 characteristics but that the company does not need then obviously nobody pays anything, but if I have 5 requirements that respect the 5 requirements that the hrs impose then it is not right that I am framed starting from the minimum of ccnl. I think so.

 

[MassiVonWeizen]

I didn't mean any unsolicited requirements and skills. what I wanted to say is that if the top job seeks candidates with more skills then it is right to correspond them something more for each satisfied requirement. if I have 100 characteristics but that the company does not need then obviously nobody pays anything, but if I have 5 requirements that respect the 5 requirements that the hrs impose then it is not right that I am framed starting from the minimum of ccnl. I think so.

and how would you manage it nationally in a ccnl? and how would you monetaryly evaluate these skills and all the nuances attached? and since they would be valid (because I assure you that an engineer just graduated even if he knows English, a fem, a cad just entered the company can not do almost anything).

I give you another example (be careful, we are talking about engineers, but this speech must apply to any worker with added skills, even the cook who knows 3 languages in a restaurant with multiethnic staff):
a company seeks an engineer who knows beyond the technical English level a1, German discreet and Spanish base, a fem, two cad and some basic notion of cam (it is an average company in which the roles are very transversal); My resume says I answer all these requirements. I do the various interviews and I have the right result.
start work with my 300/400€ extra; I am immediately given to measure a structure of a few dozen meters and dozens of bodies, I put 4 hours instead of 1 because I must constantly read my notes and make evidence that my calculations are valid and is proceeding in the right direction; after that I have to draw the structure and put another 8 hours because the greatest design made at university was a frame of ten poor bodies; they send me to the workshop to talk to the weld department to decide where and how to weld the designed structure and tells me that half of the welds I put are wrong because not feasible and because that ten-metre beam that must have a 2mm flatness should be straightened every meter of welding; to finish I have to agree with a foreign supplier in English delivery times but he speaks too fast and incalciatingly that I, already insecure after the previous tests and accustomed to set speeches, I can not answer his questions and I make scene muta.

I have deliberately exaggerated, but I hope I have made the idea that your mink is not feasible.
and do not forget that if you could also give value to the various requirements you would obtain insurrections from those who consider its best and most worthy feature of others (German vs Chinese, catia vs creo, etc...)

 

[TECNOMODEL]

I didn't mean any unsolicited requirements and skills. what I wanted to say is that if the top job seeks candidates with more skills then it is right to correspond them something more for each satisfied requirement. if I have 100 characteristics but that the company does not need then obviously nobody pays anything, but if I have 5 requirements that respect the 5 requirements that the hrs impose then it is not right that I am framed starting from the minimum of ccnl. I think so.

All this is already there, and it is called negotiation.
if I aspirant candidate possess all the skills that the company requires I will make my wage request to accept that place, if you find an agreement is made, otherwise the selection does not go to good end.
Of course, you must be able to afford it, because if you are without a job, with a mortgage to pay and your children to keep you even on an unsuitable wage, until you find anything else.
and here many companies march on us, knowing to find sooner or later someone who will accept a low salary let go workers with greater skills, but here you enter speeches that exult from the topic of the thread.

 

[Polymar]

That is the truth, it would be enough to say "treatment with compromises"

 

[stefanobruno]

Maybe he's a fox-dressed donkey! :

or he's a great-asy who hired him.
There are people who earn so much and don't even know how they do, the world of work is strange.

 

[PIETRO2002]

or he's a great-asy who hired him.
There are people who earn so much and don't even know how they do, the world of work is strange.

It's strange, but often and willingly, meritocracy loses in front of long languages and I don't speak only on a vocal level! we have understood