tree motor

[salvatore87]

However that engine launches should also be mounted on the sedan appia

 

[Er Presidente]

We have certain artifacts here too
this is the design of the engine shaft of a 12 cylinder.

I still wait. . .
:biggrin:

 

[Counterblow Hammer]

I'd say it's a damler db-601 on alpha romeo license.
I'll deepen.

p.s.: we say that "we" managed to make them stay at the airport, but if the file was higher than the two "mega" I could also pay him the return ticket (to have them around the province would not be healthy).
:biggrin:

I also confirm this hypothesis (b.: in Italy this engine was designated by the Alpha as a 1000 rc.41) and I do it for a simple reason: the authors of the book (speluzzi and tessarotto) have gravitated for years in alpha orbit and consequently procuring the drawings was "relatively easy". It should be noted that at the year of publication (60s) this engine was almost out of use as it had been mounted only on military aircraft that belonged to the axis: we know well how the story went.... Afterwards the turbines began to take ground more and little or nothing had remained for v engines, the only engines to c.i. remained at military level were stellar.


However such a motor tree was a kind of "productive basket" for the alpha: the first problems arisen concerning the forging of the crude and in about a year were resolved (as far as fatigue, but unsolved).n.b.: the alpha at the time in the field of hot stamping was second only to the German colossi (krupp in particular); However, as much as a company can have extremised the production by forging of propeller blades in durallumio well other thing is to print a crankshaft of a v12 of 1100 mm with molds that have a division surface that develops on 3 floors and sketches with three-dimensional development, instead of plan like the elbows trees of v4 or v6the subsequent problems were those related to thermal treatments: and washed post-hardening distortions (there is talk of a tree from another 1000 mm, not a jominy test!) and difficulty in reaching the desired metallurgical-mechanical performance assillated the production of this tree until the day when this ceased! Unfortunately in this field (the metallurgical one related to thermal treatments) the alpha (but in general all Italian companies of that time) paid.

I do not want to make any controversy, but if we Italians have become appreciated forgingers worldwide, we owe it in part to those in the 1930s and 1940s who are given to make composing for the military areonautics. It is clear that if this experience had done it in the civil field would be better, but the military environment often allows the industry to arrive where the civilian would not allow it. . .

 

[Er Presidente]

I also confirm this hypothesis (b.: in Italy this engine was designated by the Alpha as a 1000 rc.41) and I do it for a simple reason: the authors of the book (speluzzi and tessarotto) have gravitated for years in alpha orbit and consequently procuring the drawings was "relatively easy". It should be noted that at the year of publication (60s) this engine was almost out of use as it had been mounted only on military aircraft that belonged to the axis: we know well how the story went.... Afterwards the turbines began to take ground more and little or nothing had remained for v engines, the only engines to c.i. remained at military level were stellar.


However such a motor tree was a kind of "productive basket" for the alpha: the first problems arisen concerning the forging of the crude and in about a year were resolved (as far as fatigue, but unsolved).n.b.: the alpha at the time in the field of hot stamping was second only to the German colossi (krupp in particular); However, as much as a company can have extremised the production by forging of propeller blades in durallumio well other thing is to print a crankshaft of a v12 of 1100 mm with molds that have a division surface that develops on 3 floors and sketches with three-dimensional development, instead of plan like the elbows trees of v4 or v6the subsequent problems were those related to thermal treatments: and washed post-hardening distortions (there is talk of a tree from another 1000 mm, not a jominy test!) and difficulty in reaching the desired metallurgical-mechanical performance assillated the production of this tree until the day when this ceased! Unfortunately in this field (the metallurgical one related to thermal treatments) the alpha (but in general all Italian companies of that time) paid.

I do not want to make any controversy, but if we Italians have become appreciated forgingers worldwide, we owe it in part to those in the 1930s and 1940s who are given to make composing for the military areonautics. It is clear that if this experience had done it in the civil field would be better, but the military environment often allows the industry to arrive where the civilian would not allow it. . .

a great post! Congratulations.
the production of the daimler engines represented a real nightmare for the romeo alpha, in the end the production was always insufficient and many macchi cells c.202 remained waiting without engines. with the availability of the db.605 was decided to give the production license to the fiat with better results, but it was too late.
The daimler engine is a true example of the limit of mechanical production possibilities worldwide.

 

[rinato]

Hello, just to understand: That tree there would be difficult to produce today?

 

[Er Presidente]

Hello, just to understand: That tree there would be difficult to produce today?

the German restorers of daimler say practically impossible replication.

 

[Counterblow Hammer]

Hello, just to understand: That tree there would be difficult to produce today?

we analyze in short the problem:

(1) mold construction: looking at the attached image (if I didn't count the crank pins should be 6) you notice what the complexity of the mold is. an account is to do it now with a 3d modeler and a 5-axis mill, an account is to do it with paper and pen and a cut to copy... for polishing we went of carborundum (or similar) and elbow oil, while now the frieze is arranged.
it should be added that in addition to the mold to print it is necessary to consider also the female debater: it will have the same division line punishment and in addition it will have to be sharp with stripes to allow the hairstyle of the bava. same speech applies to the male drooper.

(2) rough sketching: clearly the piece of raw billet before being forged must be sketched (or by free grinding or by other moulds) to distribute the material where. then: an account is to do it for pieces where all the necessary folds are on a single floor (we think of a tree of a 4 cylinders online seen in plan: the direction changes are all on one floor), while an account is to do it for pieces where the change of direction varies in space.
still today there are forgings that avoid the problem print the tree as it was a 6 in line and then torch warm the jaws with step 120°.

(3) geometric resistance and stability of moulds: At present, the state of the art of mold materials is now excellent (if we think of vacuum recast steels to homogenize the metallurgical structure of the material...), while at the time hot tool steel was moving the first steps (the tungsten had begun to be used in germany just in the 1920s. here we are in the 1930s so all the implications for its use had yet to be evaluated!). keep in mind that these pieces were printed on the millet (and here the minimum was 25,000 kg*m) and not on the press: a milled mould works with impact plus all stresses related to the deformation process, while one by press only sews the last. therefore, being the material a little bit thin regarding the mechanical resistance (so deformable), being subjected to the worst working conditions (better) and being already by itself the design of the unhappy mold (the relatively fine central sets and the sudden changes of form due to the peculiarity of the division line) it is understood how difficult to make a mold that resists mechanically and at the same time maintains an excellent geometric stability.

4) cooling and heat treatment deformations: given the geometry of the piece it is easy to guess how the only cooling in the air can lead to deformations of devergulation of the tree if this is not properly supported when this process is executed; these deformations are added to those due to the martensitic transformation of the tempering process and it is soon done to understand how the easy risk of having in the machine a completely slipped piece.


the creation of such a piece with today's state of the art of hot stamping processes is no longer so difficult (it always and still remains a piece that from so many satisfactions how many diamonds!), but think about it at that time. . .


that the German restorers say that it is impobable to reproduce I see a little exaggerated; certainly to reproduce it with the same techniques used then for a series of very few pieces that is impossible (I let you imagine how difficult it is to start a molding line, not forging free!, for maybe to make 4/5 pieces... do not time to try the mold and to bring it in temperature that you already finished everything!).



I hope to have been clear enough; for whatever they are available.

 

[Counterblow Hammer]

n.b.: the alpha at the time in the field of hot stamping was second only to the German colossi (krupp in particular); However, as much as a company can have extremised the production by forging of propeller blades in durallumio well other thing is to print a crankshaft of a v12 of 1100 mm with molds that have a division surface that develops on 3 floors and sketches with three-dimensional development, instead of plan like the elbows trees of v4 or v6

the plan development of the line of division rebounds only the motor trees for monocylinders, bicylinders, 4 cylinders online and boxer engines. the six-cylinder v has a divising line that develops in 3 sizes.


I'm sorry for the shit!...

 

[Er Presidente]

we analyze in short the problem:

(1) mold construction: looking at the attached image (if I didn't count the crank pins should be 6) you notice what the complexity of the mold is. an account is to do it now with a 3d modeler and a 5-axis mill, an account is to do it with paper and pen and a cut to copy... for polishing we went of carborundum (or similar) and elbow oil, while now the frieze is arranged.
it should be added that in addition to the mold to print it is necessary to consider also the female debater: it will have the same division line punishment and in addition it will have to be sharp with stripes to allow the hairstyle of the bava. same speech applies to the male drooper.

(2) rough sketching: clearly the piece of raw billet before being forged must be sketched (or by free grinding or by other moulds) to distribute the material where. then: an account is to do it for pieces where all the necessary folds are on a single floor (we think of a tree of a 4 cylinders online seen in plan: the direction changes are all on one floor), while an account is to do it for pieces where the change of direction varies in space.
still today there are forgings that avoid the problem print the tree as it was a 6 in line and then torch warm the jaws with step 120°.

(3) geometric resistance and stability of moulds: At present, the state of the art of mold materials is now excellent (if we think of vacuum recast steels to homogenize the metallurgical structure of the material...), while at the time hot tool steel was moving the first steps (the tungsten had begun to be used in germany just in the 1920s. here we are in the 1930s so all the implications for its use had yet to be evaluated!). keep in mind that these pieces were printed on the millet (and here the minimum was 25,000 kg*m) and not on the press: a milled mould works with impact plus all stresses related to the deformation process, while one by press only sews the last. therefore, being the material a little bit thin regarding the mechanical resistance (so deformable), being subjected to the worst working conditions (better) and being already by itself the design of the unhappy mold (the relatively fine central sets and the sudden changes of form due to the peculiarity of the division line) it is understood how difficult to make a mold that resists mechanically and at the same time maintains an excellent geometric stability.

4) cooling and heat treatment deformations: given the geometry of the piece it is easy to guess how the only cooling in the air can lead to deformations of devergulation of the tree if this is not properly supported when this process is executed; these deformations are added to those due to the martensitic transformation of the tempering process and it is soon done to understand how the easy risk of having in the machine a completely slipped piece.


the creation of such a piece with today's state of the art of hot stamping processes is no longer so difficult (it always and still remains a piece that from so many satisfactions how many diamonds!), but think about it at that time. . .


that the German restorers say that it is impobable to reproduce I see a little exaggerated; certainly to reproduce it with the same techniques used then for a series of very few pieces that is impossible (I let you imagine how difficult it is to start a molding line, not forging free!, for maybe to make 4/5 pieces... do not time to try the mold and to bring it in temperature that you already finished everything!).



I hope to have been clear enough; for whatever they are available.

I have to find the source, but reading a report from a group of restorers of a German bf.109, I remember that at some point the plane was grounded because because of an analysis of the engine shaft it would have found some anomaly. What struck me was a statement like, "we are forced to stop him because the daimler cannot reproduce it and only motor trees of the time must be used, few and not all in terms of use.
I go to memory but it seems to me to be a problem of precision of the processing, today not reproducible and that they had been a surprise also for the mercedes. Unfortunately there were no details but, I imagine that maybe you could treat some detail rather than the general size.
if I find the article the public.
One thing is certain at the time in the alpha romeo they had to buy the machines for the work and not only the projects.

 

[Er Presidente]

We have certain artifacts here too
this is the design of the engine shaft of a 12 cylinder.

taken and spread in the cosmos.
The posteriors will thank you!
:biggrin:

 

[rinato]

[omissis]the creation of such a piece with today's state of the art of hot stamping processes is no longer so difficult (it always and still remains a piece that from so many satisfactions how many diamonds!), but think about it at that time. . .


that the German restorers say that it is impobable to reproduce I see a little exaggerated; certainly to reproduce it with the same techniques used then for a series of very few pieces that is impossible (I let you imagine how difficult it is to start a molding line, not forging free!, for maybe to make 4/5 pieces... do not time to try the mold and to bring it in temperature that you already finished everything!).



I hope to have been clear enough; for whatever they are available.[/QUOTE]Not clear: crystalline!

However, could the German restorers happen that some corrections have not been reported on the projects of the time? Okay that they are famous for the teutonic precision, but if they were at war, and they were losing it... it's just a hypothesis. Of course the piece, live, must be spectacular even as a stop.
[Ancor oggi ci son forgiatori che evitare il problema stampano l'albero come fosse un 6 in linea e poi torcono a caldo le mannaie con passo 120°.]and which modern engines adopt such a tree?

 

[Counterblow Hammer]

I have to find the source, but reading a report from a group of restorers of a German bf.109, I remember that at some point the plane was grounded because because of an analysis of the engine shaft it would have found some anomaly. What struck me was a statement like, "we are forced to stop him because the daimler cannot reproduce it and only motor trees of the time must be used, few and not all in terms of use.
I go to memory but it seems to me to be a problem of precision of the processing, today not reproducible and that they had been a surprise also for the mercedes. Unfortunately there were no details but, I imagine that maybe you could treat some detail rather than the general size.
if I find the article the public.
One thing is certain at the time in the alpha romeo they had to buy the machines for the work and not only the projects.

This then is um another speech!
then almost all of the machines to perform work on these components was "to copy": a model was created (usually in wood) and then the machine was equipped with a tasting system that allowed to move the tool "copying" the piece. the problem for us posteri is that the model was retouched from time to time until the desired result was reached. Unfortunately many times such changes were not reported in drawing (sometimes it would have no sense to do so as the modification could only be functional to manage the accuracy of the tastator in terms of "bottom mood") and therefore now we find ourselves with the design of a theoretically accurate piece, which however makes you blaspheme when you have to realize it as neither remain nor the models nor the notes of the builders.

 

[Counterblow Hammer]

[omissis]the creation of such a piece with today's state of the art of hot stamping processes is no longer so difficult (it always and still remains a piece that from so many satisfactions how many diamonds!), but think about it at that time. . .


that the German restorers say that it is impobable to reproduce I see a little exaggerated; certainly to reproduce it with the same techniques used then for a series of very few pieces that is impossible (I let you imagine how difficult it is to start a molding line, not forging free!, for maybe to make 4/5 pieces... do not time to try the mold and to bring it in temperature that you already finished everything!).



I hope to have been clear enough; for whatever they are available.

Not clear: crystalline!

However, could the German restorers happen that some corrections have not been reported on the projects of the time? Okay that they are famous for the teutonic precision, but if they were at war, and they were losing it... it's just a hypothesis. Of course the piece, live, must be spectacular even as a stop.
[Ancor oggi ci son forgiatori che evitare il problema stampano l'albero come fosse un 6 in linea e poi torcono a caldo le mannaie con passo 120°.]and which modern engines adopt such a tree?[/QUOTE]the only image I recovered is as follows:
http://www.thyssenkrupp-forginggroup.com/language-gb/produkte/geschmiedete_kurbelwellen.htmLooking at the image from the left you will find a counter pin that on the crude bears the obvious signs of the hot twist.

This process, however, is used to make any type of mowing starting from a flat forged tree.

 

[Counterblow Hammer]

1) mold construction: looking at the attached image (if I didn't count the crank pins should be 6) you notice what the complexity of the mold is. an account is to do it now with a 3d modeler and a 5-axis mill, an account is to do it with paper and pen and a cut to copy... for polishing we went of carborundum (or similar) and elbow oil, while now the frieze is arranged.
it should be added that in addition to the mold to print it is necessary to consider also the female debater: it will have the same division line punishment and in addition it will have to be sharp with stripes to allow the hairstyle of the bava. same speech applies to the male drooper.

for lovers of the genus allego design mold for motor shaft 8 crank pins, more crude design and mold of a tree to elbows for motor from truck to 6 crank pins staggered of 120° each.
both dli molds are for millet: the first for cutting from 25,000 kgm the second needed a 1000 ton recalculator for the sprinkling and a 15,000 kg sweater for finishing.
the last mold is conceptually identical to that of the drawing of which the discussion is subject.

I hope it can make a little more clear about the speeches made so far on the molding of these components. . .

 

[FedericoGG]

Thank you very much. from self-taught and unpretentious I am trying to draw a motor, seeking information as precise as possible.
Federicagg

 

[Titus G]

Hi.

the second scan should be that of the 4 cylinder shaft of the fulvia lance, the one to v of 13° (the one without bench supports).
the book is : design, design and industrial organization vol. 2 of s.l. straneo and r. conserti (I used it in superiors )
I also found a design of a 12-cylinder engine shaft for aviation from a 1964 book as soon as I can place it....

Hi. I'm a student at the mechatronics specialization. It's been a few years since you posted this message but I'd ask if you still have that drawing book.
Thank you.

 

[IronMike87]

Hi. I'm a student at the mechatronics specialization. It's been a few years since you posted this message but I'd ask if you still have that drawing book.
Thank you.

If you need some engine, historical or relatively decent tree design, I think I can post something