turn and brake progress

[clafan]

good afternoon to all, it is the first time I write in a forum and I would immediately need your help.
I have to make a milling of a pocket with size 275x150 deep 165mm. on steel reclaimed 2311, I was thinking of using a brake iscar to inserts (torica r. 0.8) for roughing but not having experience on these depths I wondered if someone could give me straights on turns and advances to make sure that the inserts spoil as much as possible.
thanks to all and good work.

 

[SHIREN]

good afternoon to all, it is the first time I write in a forum and I would immediately need your help.
I have to make a milling of a pocket with size 275x150 deep 165mm. on steel reclaimed 2311, I was thinking of using a brake iscar to inserts (torica r. 0.8) for roughing but not having experience on these depths I wondered if someone could give me straights on turns and advances to make sure that the inserts spoil as much as possible.
thanks to all and good work.

Hello clafan
welcome in the cummunity of designers of cad3d.it
the prob is the depth
however there are in rotary stems that coupled with a milling cut to inserts reach prof 200mm more or less
with cone weldon hole 32 and torica frisa from 32(the stem in the part that emerges from the cono weldon should be dia.31
however I would say to start with roughings with shorter stems
a first phase with z -60
a second phase in z -120
and then you come to z -165
for the number of laps progresses and past z can detect data from the supplier catalog
keeps you 20/30% under the "sponsorized" values
and instead of changing the carbides every 30 minutes(to contact)
They roar every 3h
another prob and evacuation of the chip
help you with the "emulsion project"
If you don't do it, you're gonna get a breath of air.
otherwise stop cnc from time to time and eliminate chips
I hope you've been helped

p.p.s.
I believe that such discussions can be posted in the specific forum
industrial manufacturing industry
I don't know how to do it right now and if I have permission to do it, it's what
Thank you very much

 

[Meccbell]

Without prejudice to all the considerations and suggestions made by my brother shiren, which I subscribe to:finger:, another thing to keep in mind is if you have a car with cone iso 40 or 50.
In the first case, given the relative exigity of the cone attack d. compared to the length of the tool, you can not push more than much with the parameters, while in the second you may also have unexpected results.
another thing about the architecture of the machine.
known that for some time, especially among the moulders, the mill of cavities and deep pockets is made more and more on horizontal working centers.
this for 2 reasons: first of all the unloading of the chips is enormously facilitated and then at equal size of machine and line spin the horizontal machines are increasingly rigid of the verticals.

Finally, I also agree on the need to move the discussion to a suitable area for the subject matter.
:smile:

 

[clafan]

I thank you for your valuable information and I apologize for the wrong discussion area. However the machine used at the question of meccbell is that I own a vertical working center with cone iso40, it is true that the orizontal friezes have the value for the evaluation of the chips but I do not have one.

thanks and good day

 

[SHIREN]

Without prejudice to all the considerations and suggestions made by my brother shiren, which I subscribe to:finger:, another thing to keep in mind is if you have a car with cone iso 40 or 50.
In the first case, given the relative exigity of the cone attack d. compared to the length of the tool, you can not push more than much with the parameters, while in the second you may also have unexpected results.
another thing about the architecture of the machine.
known that for some time, especially among the moulders, the mill of cavities and deep pockets is made more and more on horizontal working centers.
this for 2 reasons: first of all the unloading of the chips is enormously facilitated and then at equal size of machine and line spin the horizontal machines are increasingly rigid of the verticals.

Finally, I also agree on the need to move the discussion to a suitable area for the subject matter.
:smile:

it's useless to add
that any advice of mecc
It's never any advice
good day brother mecc

 

[stang64]

the material to work is quite challenging but I think you already know that.
The depth to reach definitely complicates you a little bit, but we don't get scared for so little.

I absolutely agree with the others that the parameters of the manufacturer are always to be taken into consideration by combining everything with a good dose of experience.
years ago I performed work of the geranium in depth and I found myself well with cutters to inserts like the one indicated, of other builders but the resulting is equal, today the quality is definitely improved.

on my part I can indicate a cutter with relative inserts that can reach even greater depth.

Mitsubishi spx, with the crackers.

If you want technical advice and/or proof, I can try to contact you from the technical representative of the mitsubishi, maybe you already have some representative contact for your region directly.

a greeting to all.. .

 

[clafan]

hello and thanks to all for the advice, answering to stang64 I can tell you that I already know the mitsubishi and as a type of fresa is almost equal to the iscar, do you know it? so thank you but it doesn't matter that you contact me from your representative I will put me of holy patience and I will start to rough that pocket trying to spoil less inserts possible (at least I hope) since they have a considerable cost.
a greeting to all and a thousand thanks

 

[SHIREN]

the material to work is quite challenging but I think you already know that.
The depth to reach definitely complicates you a little bit, but we don't get scared for so little.

I absolutely agree with the others that the parameters of the manufacturer are always to be taken into consideration by combining everything with a good dose of experience.
years ago I performed work of the geranium in depth and I found myself well with cutters to inserts like the one indicated, of other builders but the resulting is equal, today the quality is definitely improved.

on my part I can indicate a cutter with relative inserts that can reach even greater depth.

Mitsubishi spx, with the crackers.

If you want technical advice and/or proof, I can try to contact you from the technical representative of the mitsubishi, maybe you already have some representative contact for your region directly.

a greeting to all.. .

hello and thanks to all for the advice, answering to stang64 I can tell you that I already know the mitsubishi and as a type of fresa is almost equal to the iscar, do you know it? so thank you but it doesn't matter that you contact me from your representative I will put me of holy patience and I will start to rough that pocket trying to spoil less inserts possible (at least I hope) since they have a considerable cost.
a greeting to all and a thousand thanks

Hi.
If I can say a moment, the concept of what is a cut with plaques
It's just an equal steel stem for all manufacturers.
while carbures are sintered equal for all
there may be differences in cutting geometry
but they all copy each other
It's useless to look for the "exotic name"
buy what costs less
all the same
indeed we begin to buy products made in itely
there are some Italian companies that for products (usual to others)
and commercial value have nothing to envy foreign products

a carbide is produced with less than 1€
it sells on average around 8€ with tips even between 24-25€
and he who has more
Another bullshit is the cost of torkx screws
carbides in iso geometries should all be equal
and instead the seat of the torks is never equal:
and you have to buy it from the milling machine
meditate people

 

[stang64]

then good work and good fun in clafan, I know the products of the iscar and in part I use them, besides the rest the iscar is very strong and innovative in the cutting tools, to connect me to the idea of saving of shiren are a little expensive and you clafan are making the experience.
thanks for the explanation about friezes and plaques, illuminating, but I do not agree on the part of the are all equal and I do not want to deepen the why at this moment.

the exotic name in this case connects to a quality product perhaps not to the height of the Italian or European ones.

I meditated for a long time and then I was forced to work abroad (also for Italy), I have known and used many Italian and foreign products of all kinds and I can say with tranquility to make the right choices without looking exotic name, national or other.

Bye.

 

[SHIREN]

I meditated for a long time and then I was forced to work abroad (also for Italy), I have known and used many Italian and foreign products of all kinds and I can say with tranquility to make the right choices without looking exotic name, national or other.

Bye.

I don't question what you say
and no one said the opposite of what you write
But with "tranquillita" specific advice representatives of foreign producers

the commercial representation is always the last wheel of the carriage
Thank you very much

 

[stang64]

In my case I always found myself well with the representative staff.
in general they are technically prepared and most of the time they are former operators, well prepared who know the fact they are.
remaining on the subject, the representative of the iscar, the last visit he made me, offered the material for tests in free use, if this material meets the needs we move forward otherwise we made a new experience.

I may have misunderstood your sentence or perhaps had little professional experiences but sometimes I am a good starting point and a source of information not to be underestimated.

Say hi.

 

[Meccbell]

not within the merits of personal experiences, but in support of what Shiren says I carry what he told me not later than Friday the zone agent of a large tool distribution company (among the first 3 in Europe) about the costs of the tips in integral md, at least for those more standard, like 3 or 5 times the d.
then, speaking about the last offer they are making, it tells me a tip d.8 x 5d. tialn coated and with lubrif. internal, which would cost me about 16 euros (approximately as they have now invented this story of the variable component of the cost of the md).
in practice tells me: take into account that the cylinder in md is made in china, by an external supplier, but under control of a group house, then arrives in Europe for grinding, which is made by one of the largest specialized companies of the ue, then goes to the lapping of the edging and sharpening of head in another group company, finally passes to the coating, laser marking and packaging, always from an external supplier.
when the tip is ready arrives in their warehouses, it is stocked waiting for sale.
at that point it is worth about 30-35% of its sale price.
the 65-70% that it lacks serves to pay the structure of sale (storage, logistics and administration), advertising, technicians of consulting services, commissions of sellers, transport costs and finally to generate profit for the company leader, without forgetting a certain percentage for the costs of research and development.
Finally note that in that famous 30-35% of the price there is also the profit of those 2 or 3 suppliers who work the tip and who are not part of the group of the sales company and the transport between one stage and the other.

then the question was (it is): but 'this point caxxo that I pay 16 euros, in the end what is valued at the raw material level and work, thus excluding everything that could be avoided if it was realized at the most in 1 or 2 steps, plus the sale?
answer: no more than 2,50-3 euro.

consideration: when you take a box of inserts, a cutter or a tip in md and look at them, you think you see a tool, but in reality you are looking at a truck, a secretary, a booker, a cardboard box in hand to an airport attendant, an advertising chart, a bag agent, a seller maybe with a macchinone and iphone company below and only then, but far, you will see from yours.

 

[SHIREN]

not within the merit of personal experiences,

quotas)

I may have misunderstood your sentence or perhaps had little professional experiences but sometimes I am a good starting point and a source of information not to be underestimated.

Say hi.

Hello stang.... .
Hello mecc...
good start
then we say that today is useless to hide the thing
to suit the operators (suppliers and customers) to say that the carbures the brakes in md rib nu lot of money
But in reality with crisis everyone is trying to minimize prod costs.
Contrary to expectations the prod of tools when larger are more expensive
because they have all the casino egregiamente described by mecc...... .
what I wanted to convey and that in Italy there are very small companies
with sheds of 1000/2000 square meters a dozen employees
a nice catalogue and a series of retailers (from log to mobile without interlocutors)
having already stated that now geometries-material coatings etc
to me they look more or less all
but why not buy "made in italy)
I wish you a great day

 

[stang64]

hi shiren and mecc, good week also to you! all very interesting.

the representative I do not think can do much for the costs of the product, the speech was related to the consideration made on the representatives and the quality of the products supplied, telling me that the products are all the same I put to think, then reading the observation "we use Italian products" as if they were the best at lower cost I immediately stopped thinking and I tried to bring my consideration.

for the costs you enter a heavy and very varied topic, which I find very interesting, but that only leads in one direction, it is all too expensive.

Let's say that all the traphy of movements and passes as you described to get to the tip with the price proposed to you, unfortunately, it also happens to eat a plate of salad with two tomatoes.

we all know well what makes us pay much more important things than this tip, the cost rises only because the road made by the tomato reflects exactly the way described by you for the tip, with the difference that for the tomato is all made in italy (at least so they tell us).

returning to the tip, considering (if I understand right), that the supplier is of the best quality in Europe, the cost they have proposed does not seem bad, indeed I would say to be a good price.
for a hard metal tip, coated, with internal lubrication, 3 - 5 d, tell me that it is proposed to you at 16 euro? Too bad you don't tell me the name might also interest me if you tell me the quality is good.

from a supplier that I use habitually, also this rather important, with a warehouse (also online) of 40,000 articles, it is possible to define a large warehouse that contains important brands related to the supply of articles for mechanics, the price for a hss-e-pm with dye coating, 5xd, without internal washing to 21.95 euros.
with this tip you can go " pretty safe" on stainless steel reclaimed from 950-1100 n/mm2, but you will agree with me that it is far from the tip you described and proposed to 16 euro.
hard metal tip, coated, internal washing as you indicated at a cost of 16 euros, from my parts you pay at least double and if we go ahead with quality, to pierce more 'hard' materials, maybe hardened, we go at a price three or four times so.

Bye.

 

[SHIREN]

hi shiren and mecc, good week also to you! all very interesting.

Bye.

The discussion is becoming interesting
But I think we're just a minute.
perhaps if we refer to the question placed by the friend caflan
why not understand how much impacts the cost of the consumables "the plaques-tork-ecc and if it breaks I go to slam with a stem
in a workmanship placed z 165 x x x x
so we will understand the prob better
Thank you very much