ragnol
Guest
nothing to add.
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TECNOMODEL
Guest
not just the engineer, if you want to ask who works in the foundry, does roads or other similar jobs.
but the same applies to the employee, the designer, the designer. no one has the paved road and easy life, apart from father's children
If everyone wants to engineer it doesn't give you the suspicion that they seek skills that a graduate doesn't have?
absolutely wrong, before writing certain things go to see the average salaries in Italy by categories.
I repeat, let him say by one who studied little, worked a lot and if he wanted to grow and arrive in ut he had to rub a lot with evening schools and study, alone I will never get to have the skills that can have an engineer and I will have to "please" to stop to what I reached, because at 50 years played I will hardly be able to climb beyond.
Vittorio
Guest
@marco9669mha.. :unsures:
I have always read with interest your opinions, and certainly on some points you are right.
I'm sorry, but you discovered hot water. the world has worked so since man began to build the first tools.
Your hymn to pessimism I think it is due to the vicissitudes of life that have not been so favorable to you, and I also believe that it was your high expectations that were very different from reality.
If it can comfort you, more or less, what you're trying, we've tried most of them. and before us our parents and before our grandparents.
But it is not a good reason not to improve the world, and to improve the world we must study and deepen our knowledge.
There are several people of your age (including my son, who among other things did your own studies) who earn about 1400/1600 euros per month.
And yet they married, they created a family and bought a house. Obviously working in two.
economic security, if you're interested, doesn't depend on how much you earn but depends on how many things you can do without it.
if you earn 5000 euros per month and spend 4999, you are poor
Now, apart from my very banal premise, I think you're a good person, I think you're a great gregarious, I think you're a reliable person, and I also believe that compared to a commendable graduate, you have cultural bases that give you two more marches.you just have to find the strength and the desire to take away this astio that you have inside and take life with more optimism
I close by quoting a proverb that is my battle horse. “so glad we help her”
I have always read with interest your opinions, and certainly on some points you are right.
I'm sorry, but you discovered hot water. the world has worked so since man began to build the first tools.
Your hymn to pessimism I think it is due to the vicissitudes of life that have not been so favorable to you, and I also believe that it was your high expectations that were very different from reality.
If it can comfort you, more or less, what you're trying, we've tried most of them. and before us our parents and before our grandparents.
But it is not a good reason not to improve the world, and to improve the world we must study and deepen our knowledge.
There are several people of your age (including my son, who among other things did your own studies) who earn about 1400/1600 euros per month.
And yet they married, they created a family and bought a house. Obviously working in two.
economic security, if you're interested, doesn't depend on how much you earn but depends on how many things you can do without it.
if you earn 5000 euros per month and spend 4999, you are poor
Now, apart from my very banal premise, I think you're a good person, I think you're a great gregarious, I think you're a reliable person, and I also believe that compared to a commendable graduate, you have cultural bases that give you two more marches.you just have to find the strength and the desire to take away this astio that you have inside and take life with more optimism
I close by quoting a proverb that is my battle horse. “so glad we help her”
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stevie
Guest
I have already answered you before, partly I share your bitterness.
to honor the truth the fault of the widespread submansion is not the fault of the universities but of the Italian entrepreneurial realities, made by many "sciur brambilla" that opened the dictator in the '50s and '60s, they have enlarged it a little but when then came the globalization were overwhelmed by the foreign competitors who had size 100 times their...
so at the end of the fair for many Italian realities an engineer is wasted, and the market reacted accordingly equating it often to a skilled technician perhaps with experience, which if we think about it is a madness, it would be like to say that a nurse with 20 years of experience is compared to a surgeon. . .
to tell the truth a good part of the fault has also the Italian fiscal and bureaucratic system, in fact as soon as an Italian company reaches considerable dimensions the first thing it does is to move the legal and fiscal place abroad and start to delocalize (there are hundreds of examples).
We could talk for hours and write about books, in essence I agree that the myth of Italian entrepreneurship, apart from some exceptions, is failing in the light of the situation at 2021. .
I told you that I had already given you advice, synthesize or open you, go abroad, go to the commercial side, try to ambire to higher figures. . .
Mario SJPD
Guest
I am sorry for your state of mind I confirm what you already wrote, you had the will the strength to determine the possibility to study, I congratulate you but now you are serious you have the opportunity to rewind your sleeves and prove how you are but if your goal is 2000 euros per month you may be right.
TAURUS77
Guest
Dearest Marco9669,
I do not want to be sermons but share the thought of our victorious colleague.
Happiness is a mental state.... you have ahead of one who recently gave up the salary (between thirteenth and fourteenth, meal vouchers and overtime arrived a fur under the 5k....adesso 1500) for a much more modest one and you know what I earned?
My son's smile that when he was born I saw him for the first month and then I saw him again after six months... you read well six months.
I have earned the bread of my land and the closeness of the few elderly families that remain to me.
I gained some free time to go on bought motorcycle used by third hand and breathe the sea air.
I can no longer work in the big mega multinational company of the dick and (I went to work at six o'clock in the morning and went out at ten o'clock in the evening) do the job I had struggled for since the time of the graduation thesis.
Be quiet and do what you have to do but do not burn your liver as if things come well if they don't come and you're with consciousness in place trying to enjoy the beautiful things that life gives you.
I can no longer afford an expensive griffate boss but those few heaps that save I put a little bit of drink to the bike and for a couple of hours I am free and happy.
I do not want to be sermons but share the thought of our victorious colleague.
Happiness is a mental state.... you have ahead of one who recently gave up the salary (between thirteenth and fourteenth, meal vouchers and overtime arrived a fur under the 5k....adesso 1500) for a much more modest one and you know what I earned?
My son's smile that when he was born I saw him for the first month and then I saw him again after six months... you read well six months.
I have earned the bread of my land and the closeness of the few elderly families that remain to me.
I gained some free time to go on bought motorcycle used by third hand and breathe the sea air.
I can no longer work in the big mega multinational company of the dick and (I went to work at six o'clock in the morning and went out at ten o'clock in the evening) do the job I had struggled for since the time of the graduation thesis.
Be quiet and do what you have to do but do not burn your liver as if things come well if they don't come and you're with consciousness in place trying to enjoy the beautiful things that life gives you.
I can no longer afford an expensive griffate boss but those few heaps that save I put a little bit of drink to the bike and for a couple of hours I am free and happy.
ramjet
Guest
Hello Marco
your experience is similar to that of many.
I'm sorry the question. Where did you graduate?
your experience is similar to that of many.
I'm sorry the question. Where did you graduate?
Marco9669
Guest
in job requests in general there is graduate and/or graduate, in almost all offers; is the experience that breaks people not the title.
Of course, but it is not so much the problem in itself, as the fact that the problem is hidden and not dealt with seriously! the first way to improve the world is to face problems! the problem is much bigger than "you need to learn to write the cv". Please!
!!!
be sure I would have made your own choice after but I worked a decade for 5000 a month so that I had some money in the bank from heheheeh
Marco9669
Guest
in the worst of the worst in Italy: university of Padua studies; Mechanical engineering. where every dream does not become reality.
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Fulvio Romano
Guest
he did not learn from professional professors at university, figure out what he can learn from life that is notoriously the most bitch among teachers.
Fulvio Romano
Guest
You're totally right.
It's called easterlin's paradox, and I studied it at the university.
ragnol
Guest
@marco9669
As already said, to me the things that (not) taught you in one respect to the superiors would make me comfortable, and I envy you.
Good things.
the ability to understand a written text should be granted in a graduate, even more in engineering (it is not that of the manual of a reducer you can keep good - and discard it - only that the seal of the oil cap is white and not black....).
As already said, to me the things that (not) taught you in one respect to the superiors would make me comfortable, and I envy you.
Good things.
Stan9411
Guest
and see then that you run for the wrong positions?! you have a master's degree and look for among the job offers to designer/designer who are usually open to graduates.. How to say you fucked up to buy you a ferrari and then use it to go shopping..
there are dozens of offers from large companies and consulting companies looking for young engineers in the most diverse fields: simulations, testing (the best branch according to me to experience), process engineering, sales support, quality, calibration etc etc etc. etc. and this in Italy.. so let’s take advantage also I’m myth that to make career you have to go abroad.
I will never understand who put you in the head that the engineer draws..... Yet if you take a random university and look at the study plan of the faculty of mechanical engineering, it seems obvious to me that drawing is only one of the skills that you try to give, often also held in the background (a little erroneously. . )
Check out this kind of offers and let me know if the graduates are enough.
Stan9411
Guest
30 seconds research ... 247 results .. I opened 3.. require at least master's degree.(I think I don't break any forum rules if I obscure sensitive information. if not please moderators to cancel the post)
PIETRO2002
Guest
Even not to decide to change attitude is a decision!
Marco9669
Guest
I don't understand. little changes, it is exactly as I said, the job is found but it is paid equal. In short, we engineers get the most difficult jobs, with more skill to be hired, with more responsibility for a few hundred euros more per month if it's okay.
besides the fact that the salary is not in any of those offers (so I would have to be laughed) and the second offer is for an internship..insomma master engineer assumed in internships for 600 euros per month..... !
and stop with "I take almost 5k if I consider:
1) overtime
2) the transfer
3) meal vouchers
that even a transferist worker then comes to that sum.
we are sincere, the salary is equal point and stop. then we can stay here to say if it is better to make the designer or the tester as work, but the salary is for everyone because so is the law! the question that I ask you then is this: better to make the designer (which is relatively simple and with little responsibility) for little money to 20 years or to make the tester (with lots of responsibility) to 28 and collect little money equal?
this of course is for Italy, abroad the degree is worth much more and there is marked difference also of salary.
and anyway it is not a myth that abroad you do more career than in Italy if abroad committing half you take home double.
You have to be honest and honest and admit that so it is and therefore nothing...do your choices considering the investment ( huge) of years and time to be able to make the infamous test engineer that probably takes or like me or just above (surely not 3000€ if it does not make the transfertist). !
PIETRO2002
Guest
Maybe I write fried air, but visions generate behavior... Positive visions generate positive attitudes and vice versa, maybe see problems as opportunity. . Forget it, words in the wind, but maybe the solution could also be here!
wert
Guest
but I believe that the cause of sub-retribution of graduates simply depends on the fact that there are more engineers than they really serve. from a few years to this part, made 100 the number of boys who finish the technical institutes, 80 continue to university and the 20 who stop, it is not even said that they are going to work in technical field. when I started working 40 years ago (doing the professional), in the engineering companies, the engineers were quite rare and they were working on engineering, while those like me did the designers. in the medium-small companies there was "the engineer", almost mythological figure which was the technical reference of the company. Now, with so many engineers around, I think that the role has been inflated and so many are willing to work in order to bring home the salary and the companies have slipped into this opportunity without getting too much scruples. I, while having had the luck of having a professional growth more than dignified thanks to some good intuition, I always felt the lack of a university preparation. That said, if one makes a mere economic calculation, considered the 5/6 years of non-income and university expenses, it turns out that between a graduate and a graduate dance more than 100k euros of difference that, according to current wages, it will be hard to recover. It remains the vocation and the desire to know that it cares about the salary, but not always enough. in the light of these considerations, in the end our friend I understand a little.
Stefano_GS
Guest
without controversy: what abroad do you speak of?
It seems to me a fairly sad common place that abroad is all better.
I recognize that abroad, in a certain part of abroad I would identify with northern Europe, there is more meritocracy.
but that committing half your career is your opinion far from reality. you have the opportunity to make careers but commit yourself thoroughly, as well as in Italy if you want to emerge, and only if you show you have skills and reach your goals.
in some countries then you have some benefits but for example many less overalls, in the glorious germany the concept of super-protected Italian time does not exist just to make an example.
If you feel that outside the Italian borders there is a much better world go and try, you are young, you ambition would be a great opportunity to test you. and it would also be a nice business card if you wanted to return to Italy.
My wedding witness has been 10 years in uk, completed the university in cambridge (spending a considerable amount) now it is 4 years that it is doing the equivalent of our practice period to become forensic psychologist. He's taking a very interesting path, but it's not that the salary is fabulous for now.
My wife's witness is in dubai, here she is paid very well. works in a multinational in marketing after graduation in uk in organization of events and master in communication. the competition however is crazy, works 11 hours a day, meetings every hour of the day and lives in a place that despite the common imagination offers limited possibilities of social life
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Stan9411
Guest
What a surprising polemic however ... before the problem was poor university education and jobs shared with graduates ... we tell you that there are roles for which engineering training is indispensable and you get out that it is not worth it because they are definitely paid little.. based on what sources do you say this? so much controversy from bars, so many questions and no demonstration of passion for this work.
I told you my salary. I have former university students working in fca, eni, in pirelli and earn 2000 with 3 years of seniority.. but surely you will tell me that even so is little.. they do not break their back, nor they die of anxiety for the decisions they are called to make. . are paid for the ideas and skills they carry. clearly work in companies that claim .. but if you don't like it then you can't work anywhere.
I told you my salary. I have former university students working in fca, eni, in pirelli and earn 2000 with 3 years of seniority.. but surely you will tell me that even so is little.. they do not break their back, nor they die of anxiety for the decisions they are called to make. . are paid for the ideas and skills they carry. clearly work in companies that claim .. but if you don't like it then you can't work anywhere.
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