open a prototypal service... do you still want? what machines?

[Gattaiolato]

Hello everyone,
yesterday I discovered this great forum and I already read it all.
I'm 33 years old and I'm seriously thinking about getting into the tour, firenze area, the ideas are there but I have to cross them with the harsh reality.
in addition to the uncertainty of being able to break down, there is the ability to settle the debts contracted to leave. . .
I, after a month of study of the sector, still believe, although in reality there is still some dowel on the costs, I have an idea of the prices of the machines and nothing more.
I wanted clarification:
fdms (abs and company) are ideal for robust pieces without a particular refinement of surfaces, but are expensive pieces? is the robustness of the wood blocks?
sla (chalk powders) are ideal for surface rendering, details, printing is faster, but are less rubuste? if it is not robust? Can you do it, I don't know, a pen holder?
is reliable This table What did I find?
Can you buy leasing machines?
the sectors to which the service is addressed are industry, technical studies, goldsmiths and just?
a friend of mine for a thesis in architecture paid a plastic in balsa 500€, war nothing that, you can compete with such price? base size 50x70, the real building will be 8x8x8cm, scale 1:500 if not 1000.
equipping for a clientele excludes being able to provide service to the other?
do you have an idea how many offer the service in Italy? Are we saturated?
Can you print gadgets? if you with what technology is it?
question a little personal: is your only activity or do it as a secondary and you keep with something else?
I want to know if I can turn it off.
Thank you very much, to all those who will respond. from Monday I will start calling the dealers so I will no longer bother you:wink:
Hi.
thank you so much to anyone who will want to answer

 

[2¶ - progetti]

hi gattaiolato! and future colleague??? ! but if you agree or not the decision at the end will be your only, too much responsibility...cmq, my experience is that if the service is conceived as completion to other activities then it is useful and can give you that something extra and bring you to an increase in turnover, alone you do not live if you think to buy a single car and throw you in this sea magnum....guard for example skorpionprototypes to realize what big fish are you? ...you go to the bank to ask for money and then you will understand what I mean....if you then start from scratch having to buy licenses of programs, open games iva and so risk you hurt yourself!!! I have joined the rapid prototyping activity, as a service, to my primary mechanical/industrial design and my first customers were just the ones I already had! !
I believe that for service with 2/3 machines, like 90% of those on this tread, the market is oriented to zero km, i.e. in the provincial or at the maximum regional residence...... of how wrong, dear colleagues? ?

disability

 

[2¶ - progetti]

....and again, consider well what market you want to attack, the industrial one or that "user" so to speak?... check out my other discussion about the convenience of moving the rp to the general public, as it seems that someone already is trying, with what economic results I don't know! ....I think that a new market will be the diffusion of 3d printing towards the user market, since also the professional, mooolto often still amazes of what you can do with the 3d printing...in this case the machine band (i.e. technology) changes again...(zcorp / objet)
cmq not be afraid, even a great living philosopher such red vasco sings ...andh already seemed the end of the world and are still here, it takes skill. . .

disability

 

[IPdesign]

Is that my time?

That's how I feel about the questions you asked
The uncertainty of success is practically assured, I as a 2-pigreco have flanked the service to a previous and pre-existing technical design study, if I had focused only on rapid prototyping certainly now the company would be already closed. This is because as soon as we start we collide in the first place with companies much more equipped than us that sometimes they have machinery already amortised and precisely for this reason in recent years, thanks to the crisis we have seen a game to the massacre ( say down ) in order to work.
a previous post spoke precisely of this, companies with state participations that allow you to work in loss burning the market in order not to make work other realities . I can understand the moment of crisis that afflicts all sectors and the having to pay leasing but to work below the cost threshold of the raw material is a game to the massacre .
and here you come about how to buy the machines
Leaasing? Well, unless you won the SuperEnalotto, I think the road is just that, but even in this case you start straight up..
As the colleague says, try sitting at a table with your bank and ask for funding to buy something and start a business.. .
if you have an activity started behind you for a few years (and I don't say two, but at least 5/6 ) that has solid billed then some chance you can also have, if you want to leave then I see it badly ...
Usually already with the company started ask for guarantees (fideiussioni ) , if the company is not there then you must have someone that guarantees for you and usually stick to the primary good that is the house of parents.
That said you understand that our banking system doesn't help you, basically if one has money lends you, if you don't have it..
I leave the rates that apply as spread .. we spread a pitiful veil.

So basically make an idea of budget and go to your bank, leave whole then look around and start thinking about which sector.

But there is a fundamental error here too,
How can you start doing service without knowing the various techniques at least?
How can you think of jumping into a sector that you don't know at all and hypothesize a success?
I give you a classic example that we all happen daily:
Call a client and ask for a quote for a detail, you look at him and tell him okay, how do you want me to do it with what technique?
and he does.. I don't know.
and here if you have already had real experience with the various techniques you can say, well this object do it with xx because it is more robust for what it has to do, rather with yy because it is more finished .. etc.
or still with zz because we can have both soft and rigid parts in the same printed or to end with jj because having to do many we save something.. etc.

from my words you will have understood that the advice is not to start in trumpet with a product, but to start selling prototypes that you will acquire from already started service, this allows you in the first line to probe the market of your area and at the same time to understand what technologies have space on your market.
I, for example, copro an area that is mechanical and "theoretically" are in competition with 2p, but I do not dream to enter a sector that is the goldsmith or the architectural one for plastics .
They're too different and I don't know how to behave.

if you have a frenzy of making investments, well modeled your own details and investing them in various techniques, you will have your own sample to show potential customers and you can actually show what you sell.

I have to contradict 2p on the market at km 0
I have customers coming from all over Italy, of course that the part of the lion makes it our region, but they defend well even more distant regions.

keep us updated

 

[Gattaiolato]

hello ip and 2p and thanks for the answers. They're tough, but I'm just what I need. I repeat punctually to the post of ip, without anything to remove to what says 2p

the uncertainty of being able to camp is practically assured, I too like 2pigreco joined the service to a previous and preexisting technical design study

Well, I imagined it couldn't be an exclusive activity, in fact I'm trying to figure out which one would best subscribe to. . renderings, as many already do.

and here you come about how to buy the machines
Leaasing? Well, unless you won the SuperEnalotto, I think the road is just that, but even in this case you start straight up..
As the colleague says, try sitting at a table with your bank and ask for funding to buy something and start a business.. .

Unfortunately I know how it goes with the banks: to today I am a member of a family sas of industrial packaging, born and carried forward by my father who, said among us, has two packages... we can do very well with banks, so we enjoy good consideration, we are reliable. the new company initially would poggere on the first and this should provide the initial budget. This year we end up paying the old debts, so it seems to me the case of opening new ones.

But there is a fundamental error here too,
How can you start doing service without knowing the various techniques at all? How can you think of throwing yourself in a sector that you do not know at all and hypothesize a success?

I can't help but I'm not so crazy.
I am a failed architect, so I have a great confidence with 3d modeling programs, 2d and graphics, with prints and this goes to add to a contact experience with the customer that although not excellent (because still too sincere:wink: ) is good, I can sell the product if the product is sold, ice to the eskimos... I'd be the first to tell him they wouldn't know what to do with it. But I can get better. (if anyone wants to hire me, send me a mp:wink
Specifically, I give 6 months to learn all the possible theory about this technology and to visit all retailers. for practice... She's banging her face.
unless someone is willing to teach me! :biggrin:

from my words you will have understood that the advice is not to start in trumpet with a product, but to start selling prototypes that you will acquire from already started service, this allows you in the first line to probe the market of your area and at the same time to understand what technologies have space on your market.

This is certainly a good idea that more than one occasion will be inevitable to exploit. always trusts in a fair competition and remember that we are all in the same boat.

I have to contradict 2p on the market at km 0
I have customers coming from all over Italy, of course that the part of the lion makes it our region, but they defend well even more distant regions.

keep us updated

for the mechanical one, which addresses the industry (which is often a bitch, sorry) you are certainly right, but for that with studies and similar I think the direct relationship can pay. having such a service at home can be an incentive.
in conclusion I am still optimistic about the possibilities.
As far as the sector is concerned, it would be the "user", I just need to understand how interesting prices are for this market.
thanks to both "p"
No one else wants to share?

 

[OnoSendai]

good evening to all of the forum, I use this 3d for my first message from newbie, I'm what gattaiolate would call "end user" i.e. a potential user of prototyping services. I am working in recent times to a lowbudget project that provides for the design, manufacture and marketing of resin accessories for modeling (aircraft, static), use solidworks and when I finish a job I look for a service that stamps my parts that I consider master for reproduction. I have turned a lot of situations in Italy and abroad asking for quotes and sometimes even printing tests (among other things also to the mod ipdesign that very kindly made me understand that it was not its industry). If I have to tell you I would be shocked to think about the consumer sector or down of there because, from what I have seen, they will be 99% shapeway, sculpteo and company, they have deadly structures capable of attracting like honey flies all that galaxy that is mostly fun to draw and does not do it for work or at least part, even those like me in Italy, comparable to the small craftsmen, are very few, I personally I have currently found a good price-quality ratio with a service that prints in objet after trying with viper (horizontal sector) but the costs were prohibitive (for my products we intend). with shapeway I have had alternate results and consider them an extremely economical alternative for not particularly paying items.
Maybe I won't be helpful for your future choices but in any case I wish you luck.....

 

[Gattaiolato]

Good evenings and make the wolf!
I am very pleased to read your opinion, I find it very interesting since it comes from the market that would most interest me. I know the e-commerce services mentioned, but in all frankness I don't care much, they are far, especially physically, from the customer. in the sense: we all buy on amazon, but not for this the shops do not open anymore. if one thing you pay 15€ but there are 10 shipping. . sure on 100€ purchase do not affect, as ip said. That's why I would go to a more "rional" market. If you want a piece but you can't do it there's no problem I do it, of course it's an additional service I'm afraid it will have to be almost gifted. eventually you might think about the "training" of potential customers. Don't let me find out all my idea!
rather I would like to know your customer experience, then did you manage to be satisfied?
I don't understand. "with shapeway I have had alternate results and consider them an extremely economical alternative to not particularly paying items."
if yes, what material did you choose and how much did it cost you?
If not, why? quality of the piece obtained or final cost?
Thank you very much.
Hi.

 

[OnoSendai]

but in all frankness I don't care so much, I'm far, especially physically, from the customer. in the sense: we all buy on amazon, but not for this the shops do not open anymore. if one thing you pay 15€ but there are 10 shipping. . sure on 100€ purchase do not affect, as ip said. That's why I would go to a more "rional" market. If you want a piece but you can't do it there's no problem I do it, of course it's an additional service I'm afraid it will have to be almost gifted. eventually you might think about the "training" of potential customers. Don't let me find out all my idea!

I wish you all the fortunes of this world also because I know that you are optimistic and today has become rare goods but aim, from what I know in my environment, for example, I see hard to find these "users" in Italy, let alone if you restrict the territorial field to "rione", I recommend you to evaluate very closely this segment of market, to make you the example of modeling, my products that are niche, if not reasoning

rather I would like to know your customer experience, then did you manage to be satisfied?
I don't understand. "with shapeway I have had alternate results and consider them an extremely economical alternative to not particularly paying items."
if yes, what material did you choose and how much did it cost you?
If not, why? quality of the piece obtained or final cost?

I wrote alternates because the first time I wrong material, the second went a little better, the parts I make realize are very small as you will understand, type wheels with tread of 16mm diameter, elements of a few cm however, the prices however you can easily detect them, just upload a stl type file and choose the material from the list, the price is in real time, the shipping expenses are usually on the 8 eu with ups. as materials the best, the most defined is the fud (and in fact costs) while the cheapest is the wsf that absolutely does not for me because it is too porous and difficult to work, it reacts badly even to a couple of past primers.
in any case I found a service here on the list that satisfies me, have a good price ratio with objet and account to serve me from them for the most complex and paying parts, while I will use shapeway or other similar online services for the less important and less paying things.
I attach a file of one of my models that I am finishing so much to understand, the prototypal parts are those in yellow the rest are photoincisions.

 

[ivaneggiare]

hello to all
I also wanted to express my... your catholic perplexity is what I had before I started. ..I think that, while being (lucky or bad luck...depends what we refer to) in Sicily, I made in order to create a competitive society at national level with different professionalism and technologies.
In my opinion, the table you published is not very reliable. ..it is the fact that the evaluation of the types of machines, related to the type of processing you would like to carry out, is fundamental; but is also fundamental the study of the direct competitors present there in the area...how to be competitive with who already does this for a long time and who maybe has already amortised the initial cost? ?
says well ipdesign...better not to try on things that others can do better...with prototyping not only you can make models but also, and above all, succeed in improving a product...point on your knowledge, optimize and if so welcome! !
I finally opened! !

for onosendai. I think that even in Italy there are qualified and economic services... :
www.pradlab.it

 

[2¶ - progetti]

Hello ivaneggiare and compliments!...of course in luck for your business, I saw the site and I see you cover all the rp skid, but how many and what machines did you take?!!!? ! ?

disabilityhttp://www.duepigreco3d.it/

 

[ivaneggiare]

Two-pigrego hello... and of course you create the wolf!! To say I cover all the rp panorama seems too much. ..however as machines the bulk is given by stratasys and z-corp technologies because they are the ones that most suit my business...to this I added cnc and other tools for other types of processing (vc etc.)

 

[2¶ - progetti]

Stratasys say... but did you just open? with elite or the fortus series? (my forbidden dream...) what signals do you have from the market? What do you have in Sicily? . Too many questions, right? and quiet comq I am not proving the ground, I have enough here to the north (crossing fingers and touch meat!!!)

disability
www.duepigreco3d.it

 

[Gattaiolato]

Can I ask if someone has objet printers and what do you think in general? Does anyone know if prices are accessible, like size? they seem interesting and versatile, especially they have a range of materials that has no competition or error. I hope to see them at the parme fair at the end of the month

 

[ferro]

About Parme.
Of course you are all welcome!
@gattaiolato: parme you will see in operation the fortus 900, the fortus 400, the fortus 250, the elite size and 1200es size.
in addition to the hp, which are so much "cugine".
Is that enough?

we answer everyone, you will see a lot of interesting applications, a coffee paid to those who show up and asks for me (except ipdesign that has already had too many) and if you register qui you will also find paid parking. . .
We're at pad. 6 stand j18.

Hi.

 

[OnoSendai]

I can ask if someone has objet printers

I can only tell you that the printed material is valid, the excellent definition for my needs (however speaking of pieces from 1-2 cm.), compared to what I did with vipers and amethyst resin there is a difference especially of surfaces, those with objets look like soap, soft to processing, those with amethyst are comparable to the resin that I use for printing.
ah, I forgot, the price with objet is about half of what I did with viper and of course, in my case, move everything in its favor.
If I say obvious things forgive me, I am end user.....

 

[Gattaiolato]

... compared to what I did with vipers and amethyst resin there is a difference especially of surfaces, those with objets look like soap, soft to processing, those with amethyst are comparable to the resin that I use for printing. ah, I forgot, the price with objet is about half of what I did with viper and of course. ....

Hello,
I am always interested, I think like everyone here, to the opinions of users.
It strikes me the question of "sapone", if I think of the marsilla soap is quite resistant to compression in the complex but easy to incision, not to mention that by flexing it with a little force you can break. are these the qualities you have found in the objet press? And if you know, can you tell me exactly the name of material? So you can go see me.
for your needs, I imagine, modeling the printed parts require further processing in addition to coloring? If I can ask, what?
thanks and hello

 

[OnoSendai]

are these the qualities you have found in the objet press? And if you know, can you tell me exactly the name of material? So you can go see me.

ah this is not my idea, it should be asked to those who use this technology, I simply had the files wondering if you could print with that level of details, since they told me you accepted the quote and I also took the risk (contained), in the end it went quite well, sure if the parts were more "hard" would be better but I am satisfied.

for your needs, I imagine, modeling the printed parts require further processing in addition to coloring? If I can ask, what?
thanks and hello

depends on the final result, in any case a pass with various abrasive cards, if possible, sometimes not given the complexity and size of the pieces, then a synthetic primer pass and again carded and smoothed.

 

[Gattaiolato]

Excuse me, but that you know the zprints travel all over 30000€?

 

[ivaneggiare]

the zprints travel over 40000 but have great qualities like the rgb coloring excellent for architectural representation

 

[Gattaiolato]

the zprints travel over 40000.. .

What a sadness!
I have to say I'm a little disappointed about it. I thought it was around 25k.

vabbà ̈, a curiosity: can you print an object like a glasshouse in bottle? I mean, excluding speeches about transparency and level of detail, if you can make one element inside the other, without dismantling the model and assembling the whole post print, is it feasible? and which technology is advisable?