company sold. what kind of employee ownership is it?

[haga78]

Greetings to all.
this evening, through corporate noises, I knew that the company at which work was sold.
I knew we were on sale for a long time, but in the engineering industry today I am in a few to invest, so the problem has not bothered us so much.
the company also made request of agreed estimate due to the debts accumulated with the suppliers: they are running rite practices and by the end of the year the court should pronounce on homologation.
have you seen or experienced similar cases? What happens to employees in these cases? are dismissed by the old company (s.p.a.) and automatically summarized by the new company or will we be forced to sign a new contract? In this last case I think of the risk that someone will want to shred the cards at the table... .
It is also said that there should be official communication in the days, but I would like to address the situation prepared, since the tricks in the workplace I took them precisely for inexperience and naiveness :frown:

 

[Fulvio Romano]

do you write that you are available for travel or transfers?

 

[haga78]

do you write that you are available for travel or transfers?

Unfortunately, yes, because I moved when I was precarious and wanted me to keep doing it as undetermined, as I actually had to do.
in reality they have reported what provided for by the metalmechanical contract in the transfer chapter, so they did not deal with harassment clauses, but they wanted to put emphasis on that aspect (even if they had not written anything the ccnl previews transfer and transfers therefore implicitly I should have done it).

I try to guess your thoughts: If you want to close the current location and transfer elsewhere, or I follow it or stay home to count the stars... .

 

[Fulvio Romano]

Exactly... is the most used way to "resize" the staff.. .

 

[haga78]

the company was sold to a group "specialized" in detecting companies in agreement.
but we know nothing else. transfers perhaps not (there are no other companies in the field of our present in the buyer group), personal reduction is not known.
but what we really don't know is whether they want to raise the company or do the vultures.
- - - updated - - - -the company was sold to a group "specialized" in detecting companies in agreement.
but we know nothing else. transfers perhaps not (there are no other companies in the field of our present in the buyer group), personal reduction is not known.
but what we really don't know is whether they want to raise the company or do the vultures.

 

[DANI-3D]

Hello, Haga.
I pray that I strongly hope that your situation is different from that shock I lived 5 years ago and resolved completely differently. This is what happened to us:
the old owner, after having accumulated several million euros of debts, has put on sale the company, in a few weeks there has been a "fowl entrepreneur" that with little money has assumed control of the society, has fired all the employees and we found all in mobility, within 4 months we have been summarized almost all with a contract to term of a year, the unions have emphasized the thing, because so does not lose registration.
the new owner made himself in four to collect everything he could from the various customers, including advances for machines that will never be delivered, he did not pay the suppliers, if not in the least part and after a year and a half closed the doors permanently.

 

[haga78]

Hello, Haga.
I pray that I strongly hope that your situation is different from that shock I lived 5 years ago and resolved completely differently. This is what happened to us:
the old owner, after having accumulated several million euros of debts, has put on sale the company, in a few weeks there has been a "fowl entrepreneur" that with little money has assumed control of the society, has fired all the employees and we found all in mobility, within 4 months we have been summarized almost all with a contract to term of a year, the unions have emphasized the thing, because so does not lose registration.
the new owner made himself in four to collect everything he could from the various customers, including advances for machines that will never be delivered, he did not pay the suppliers, if not in the least part and after a year and a half closed the doors permanently.

look at the premises there are all :frown:, better look at things as they are rather than getting illusions.
wandering the net I found a lot of information about the buyer (of course I can't put any links): Almost all the companies he detected went wrong. because as a job does the detector of companies in crisis, or has a crazy rub or does it on purpose.. .
I cannot understand how it can benefit even if only in a limited period: Perhaps you can sell products at discounted prices (with the intention not to support the costs giving bins to the suppliers) and find so customers, but the suppliers do not give us any more material if not with payment to the delivery, because of the agreed. and how will he produce? Customers also know the situation and would not be willing to pay the goods in advance, even in part. so I see it difficult to sell without sustaining the costs until the company sinks.

other thing: we have been on sale for a few years and no one has manifested the will to detect us. a short time ago was made a request for agreement. now, a short distance from the agreed here is that you materialize a buyer. is it not that things went backwards (before the buyer put us in the viewfinder, then did he request the agreed from the previous property and then came to the open)?

 

[DANI-3D]

Unfortunately the jackals, as I call them, have all the interests to intervene in certain cases, because with a minimum initial expense they manage to make money with the acqisition of brands, patents, service service for the machines in circulation, real estate, machinery and equipment sold easily at the end of the cycle.
are legal operations, permitted by law, where you can't do anything.

 

[Fulvio Romano]

What is the agreement?

 

[DANI-3D]

What is the agreement?

from wikipedia

the agreed estimate is a procedure through which the entrepreneur seeks an agreement with his creditors in order not to be declared bankrupt or in any case to try to overcome the crisis in which the company pays .... .

 

[Fulvio Romano]

So?
no one buys the company, agrees with creditors and a buyer comes up? What's the point?

However, apart from wikipedia, what is an agreed? I owe you money, I tell you, "Come on, I'll take care of you," so I don't owe you any more? I'll send you the blanket? What are we talking about?

 

[gil]

Unfortunately from my side there are several companies that are under "concorded" regime or have requested it.
but it's like wikipedia. Basically, I have a debt of 3 million and 2 million, unpaid for a long time. fulvio went to the judge and asked for the failure of my company.

then I make a meeting with the judge, the unions, the local politicians, and the prefect (the latter is always but I don't know why), and I say:

even if you make me fail, the banker does not make them 5 million by selling my company. Therefore lightning and dani are screwed anyway, but you find 400 workers on the street. Then let me pay the debts and let me go the same way, in return I accept that a person delegated by the judge every now and then comes to control the performance of my finances. any profits, are subscribed to give them to creditors. but figure out if a company substantially failed can make profit.

If the members of the meeting accept, please fill a mountain of cards and throw forward for some time. and missing credits are hollows of fulvio and dani.

This is the substance.

It is evident that for the buyer it is much better if the company is already in agreement because it must not immediately misfortune to pay the debts, but basically it cares, at least for a little time

 

[Er Presidente]

What is the agreement?

from wikipedia

the agreed estimate is a procedure through which the entrepreneur seeks an agreement with his creditors in order not to be declared bankrupt or in any case to try to overcome the crisis in which the company pays .... .

the "commissal" in private companies.

 

[Er Presidente]

Unfortunately the jackals, as I call them, have all the interests to intervene in certain cases, because with a minimum initial expense they manage to make money with the acqisition of brands, patents, service service for the machines in circulation, real estate, machinery and equipment sold easily at the end of the cycle.
are legal operations, permitted by law, where you can't do anything.

Also debts are attractive, if you have corporations that do a lot of profit, not to pay taxes, it's convenient to acquire corporations with big losses.

 

[haga78]

So?
no one buys the company, agrees with creditors and a buyer comes up? What's the point?

However, apart from wikipedia, what is an agreed? I owe you money, I tell you, "Come on, I'll take care of you," so I don't owe you any more? I'll send you the blanket? What are we talking about?

the agreed procedure is a procedure which falls within the failing legislation.

I'll tell you more concretely what happens.
when a company accumulates considerable debts to which it fails to cope and it is seen to consign a series of injunctive decrees against which it fails to oppose can make a request for agreement to the local court.
in essence if the court decides to approve the agreed (=concede it, technical term) will pay the debts in several years (usually 4) and will pay only a percentage of the debts themselves (usually 30%).
times and means of payment must be communicated to the court in the period that are assigned to it in a business plan, where it must be indicated also as the company thinks of finding the funds in the years to come.
the condition necessary to request the agreed is to have the advance of the creditors plan for a debt value of 50%+1, also these agreements must be attached to the practice.
during the "preparatory" period all debts are suspended and ineffective injunctive actions, in essence the company temporarily is free from payment of debts. the thing, however, turns out in chamber visura.
the court, received everything, analyzes and pronounces:
- grant the agreed; in chamber visura nothing appears anymore, in substance you return clean (obviously however customers and suppliers already know, but those who do not know will not come to know anything), you must pay the debts according to the plan presented;
- does not grant the agreed for lack of requirements (the courts are full of demands from healthy companies that in this way try to have "strong discounts" and "dilated payments" with suppliers);
- does not grant the agreed because the plan is not deemed sustainable (in essence the company is considered to be spread): In this case, liquidity is almost certain. the court can't do it by office, but only one creditor's request is enough.

In essence, the company tries to save itself at the expense of its creditors (the company also saves itself risks to slamming up many other companies, which give us 70% and more). It seems absurd, but it is permitted by law.

 

[numero1]

cut... .
In essence, the company tries to save itself at the expense of its creditors (the company also saves itself risks to slamming up many other companies, which give us 70% and more). It seems absurd, but it is permitted by law.

creditors can also be former employees, such as subscribed.
Maybe there are special procedures for us... I don't know, but I still keep my cards.

and there have been 2 times not one, in the first, despite (or perhaps) for the unions I left so much money on the street.
in the second, I recovered everything that I had to, indeed......... and, I have to say, this time Thank you. to the unions.

the biggest difference between me and haga78 is that he is still dependent, while at the time of my first case I had already fired.
I had left because the company was in serious difficulty, salaries were delayed by 7/8 months; And we were in the middle of the 90s, I don't know if I explain.
not in a period of crisis...... Of course there were also external factors, not all mistakes made by my company I mean, but..........
Anyway dismissing me I started my job in my new company, but I still had to get a lot of money, but now that I had a minimum of tranquility I tried to have my sights.
result? my old company declared bankruptcy, not to pay creditors, including subscribed.

My second time went well, and it happened two and a half years ago.

in any case I am near haga78.

Hi.

 

[haga78]

greeting everyone again. I take this discussion to update you on the evolution of the situation.
the company plan was presented to the court, which then within a few months will have to pronounce on the approval (or less) of the agreed estimate.
Meanwhile we continue to do that little work that is entering with many difficulties, paying in cash the suppliers. the last salary was paid to us with some days of delay because there was no money enough in cash.

Meanwhile the new property has founded a new company with name similar to what we have now...
the doubt is that it is spreading is that there is the intention to make the present society fail, to continue with the new: so creditors remain dry (the estimation of liquidity, attached to the acts, does not amount to even 1/10 of the accumulated debts), reduction of the staff and for those who will have the "luck" to be assumed by the new society surely there will be new and different contractual clauses. . .
We hope to be wrong, unfortunately for now we have no other news.
I will keep you updated so that my case can make known certain dynamics from which to look good.

 

[PierArg]

Hello, Haga.
I hope the situation is resolved as soon as possible.

Meanwhile, did you try to see around if you find an alternative? Is there anything else on your side?

 

[stevie]

greeting everyone again. I take this discussion to update you on the evolution of the situation.
the company plan was presented to the court, which then within a few months will have to pronounce on the approval (or less) of the agreed estimate.
Meanwhile we continue to do that little work that is entering with many difficulties, paying in cash the suppliers. the last salary was paid to us with some days of delay because there was no money enough in cash.

Meanwhile the new property has founded a new company with name similar to what we have now...
the doubt is that it is spreading is that there is the intention to make the present society fail, to continue with the new: so creditors remain dry (the estimation of liquidity, attached to the acts, does not amount to even 1/10 of the accumulated debts), reduction of the staff and for those who will have the "luck" to be assumed by the new society surely there will be new and different contractual clauses. . .
We hope to be wrong, unfortunately for now we have no other news.
I will keep you updated so that my case can make known certain dynamics from which to look good.

careful because such a situation I lived it years ago with a client company that before failing had opened another company obviously based in the same building, in particular from what I know it had benefited from the possibility of renting a branch of company. basically the company x (indebted to the neck) rented the activity (including machinery and stable) to the new company y (open for the occasion). Well in the specific case the new company y has come forward again for a year and a half with the usual solfa (do not pay suppliers etc). at the time when the failed judge decreed the failure of the parent company x of course also y closed (not having any instrumental good to continue). of what the company owes me x not even the shadow (it has passed almost 10 years).

 

[DANI-3D]

Hello, haga.
made the appropriate rite avoidances, from the information you give us, as I anticipated in August, it is for me to review a movie already seen of which I do not advance the final, but you will have understood how it ended. of course also in our case a new company was created that with the "method" (poor rent) of company branch continued for a year the activity to accommodate the things to the new owner.
However if you can console yourself I am currently working for a company born, just before the end of the old company, from the will of a former colleague who has gathered around if some strategic figures to continue the same production in a smaller, flexible and economic structure. and... as the wise says, not all evil comes to harm.
In your case have you considered this hypothesis?