unsatisfied neo-engineer

[MassiVonWeizen]

What training are we talking about? I was on stage after 2 weeks already doing my own computer.. .
doesn't it suit them?! How not. I work 6 months free and then they can decide if to send me home. term contracts and internships are the same thing

with the internship you cannot be without tutor and you cannot be productive; If this happens you can turn to the competent authorities to make the internship null and be paid (this means that they were wrong, but also you who did not assert your rights).
The two types of contracts are not the same, go to see how they are defined.
if they are not respected is a problem of people's mentality and not legislative, we try to grasp the difference.
I think it's very difficult for me to answer you because you don't question your point of view and get out of it just what your thesis is.

 

[stevie]

As a matter of fact, there is to say that in many companies "furbates" the interns are used as a stopper for basic tasks when there is a peak of work, so in fact they would have all the right to a full pay.

I say this I share with Marx the thought that in Italy technical positions are underestimated and subpaid.

the Italian company is myopic and incapable of long-term vision.

the great enterprise in Italy has a tradition of little expenditure in research, such expenditure has uncertain and long-term outcomes. competitive devaluations and low Italian wages guarantee profits immediately. and why should you invest in research – which gives uncertain profits in the long term – if you get certain profits now? long should think of a careful business class and a responsible political class (which we do not have in Italy).

revolution 4.0 determines a new organization of enterprise. the great Italian companies have not managed to exploit the opportunities offered by technology 4.0 that require investments in research – often too large and risky because it is not conducted by the state – which is positively correlated with innovation, while the barrier of entrepreneurial familiism prevents internationalization, and with it the adoption of new technologies with high productivity.

we specialized in low value-added productions using local skills, low labor cost and old technology – while the little technological advance embedded in these products does not require research spending. if the added value of production is low, also the relationship between this and employment, will be. so low productivity is not cause of decline, but resulting in it.
low productivity and efficiency inevitably involve a necessary wage compression for Italian companies to stay afloat in a global market
hyper competitive, crushed among the hypertechnologic products developed in use and now also in cina, and the great mass productions at very low cost of the Asian mega enterprises (in, india and other Asian countries).

 

[Marco9669]

with the internship you cannot be without tutor and you cannot be productive; If this happens you can turn to the competent authorities to make the internship null and be paid (this means that they were wrong, but also you who did not assert your rights).
The two types of contracts are not the same, go to see how they are defined.
if they are not respected is a problem of people's mentality and not legislative, we try to grasp the difference.

I understand, but what do I have to say?
I must say that the internship is the salvation of the world when given to the hand only 25% of the stagists at the end of the journey are assumed in the same company! ?
what does it change to me? if it doesn't work.
Europe had to admit just a while ago and reiterate no to internships as exploitation.
If we give the entrepreneur the opportunity to take advantage of it he does. point and stop. and this is a way that allows them to make smart (it reiterates the numbers) and so I disagree.

As a matter of fact, there is to say that in many companies "furbates" the interns are used as a stopper for basic tasks when there is a peak of work, so in fact they would have all the right to a full pay.

I say this I share with Marx the thought that in Italy technical positions are underestimated and subpaid.

the Italian company is myopic and incapable of long-term vision.

the great enterprise in Italy has a tradition of little expenditure in research, such expenditure has uncertain and long-term outcomes. competitive devaluations and low Italian wages guarantee profits immediately. and why should you invest in research – which gives uncertain profits in the long term – if you get certain profits now? long should think of a careful business class and a responsible political class (which we do not have in Italy).

revolution 4.0 determines a new organization of enterprise. the great Italian companies have not managed to exploit the opportunities offered by technology 4.0 that require investments in research – often too large and risky because it is not conducted by the state – which is positively correlated with innovation, while the barrier of entrepreneurial familiism prevents internationalization, and with it the adoption of new technologies with high productivity.

we specialized in low value-added productions using local skills, low labor cost and old technology – while the little technological advance embedded in these products does not require research spending. if the added value of production is low, also the relationship between this and employment, will be. so low productivity is not cause of decline, but resulting in it.
low productivity and efficiency inevitably involve a necessary wage compression for Italian companies to stay afloat in a global market
hyper competitive, crushed among the hypertechnologic products developed in use and now also in cina, and the great mass productions at very low cost of the Asian mega enterprises (in, india and other Asian countries).

All right.

 

[MassiVonWeizen]

what does it change to me?

change that if it is a mentality problem you can try to improve it (by not doing the same in case you become a employer), if it is legislative you can't do anything at all.

If we give the entrepreneur the opportunity to take advantage of it he does.

In fact, if you have immediately and have been silent accepting the treatment and coming to complain here you have contributed to leave the status quo unaltered.*

Europe had to admit a short time ago and reiterate no to internships as exploitation.

in fact condemned the unpaid internship and not internship as a method of insertion in the job.

However I am not saying, and I would like this to be clear, that the internship is the panacea of unemployment and is immaculate; I am saying that between the internship and the contract there are huge contractual differences and cannot be equated; then remains a fact that as for every aspect, and it is not only an Italian problem, who has power bypassing the rules at the expense of the weakest and therefore in this case ultimately also the stage is almost useless.
but if you think that after two contracts you are hired in a stable plant you are wrong and I do not know where comes your idea (I have already asked you to bring information about it) also because, just to give you an infarinated reality, if even it was, exactly as for the internship, the datore would continue to perpetrate the contract to term simply changing slightly job and you would be shut up, just like in the internship, to not stay.

*just to anticipate, I am one of those idiots who has made tens of hours of strike for all the various renewals of the contract of metalmechanicals and of which even if you don't realize it you also benefit.

 

[Marco9669]

change that if it is a mentality problem you can try to improve it (by not doing the same in case you become a employer), if it is legislative you can't do anything at all.

In fact, if you have immediately and have been silent accepting the treatment and coming to complain here you have contributed to leave the status quo unaltered.*

in fact condemned the unpaid internship and not internship as a method of insertion in the job.

However I am not saying, and I would like this to be clear, that the internship is the panacea of unemployment and is immaculate; I am saying that between the internship and the contract there are huge contractual differences and cannot be equated; then remains a fact that as for every aspect, and it is not only an Italian problem, who has power bypassing the rules at the expense of the weakest and therefore in this case ultimately also the stage is almost useless.
but if you think that after two contracts you are hired in a stable plant you are wrong and I do not know where comes your idea (I have already asked you to bring information about it) also because, just to give you an infarinated reality, if even it was, exactly as for the internship, the datore would continue to perpetrate the contract to term simply changing slightly job and you would be shut up, just like in the internship, to not stay.

*just to anticipate, I am one of those idiots who has made tens of hours of strike for all the various renewals of the contract of metalmechanicals and of which even if you don't realize it you also benefit.

after 2 renewals no but after 4 renewals you by law; for maximum renewals up to 2 years. but in the meantime you are paid with the minimum of ccnl metalmeccanico and not with internships etc.
What I say is exactly this: with internships I can work at 480 euro net and can send me home after 6 months, with the contract at the same time but at least I took twice as little. if they continue to make me renew up to 2 years without making me the indefinite contract at least I worked paid for 2 years and I can write in the resume that I have 2 years experience, while I dirt only the resume to write that I did an internship that then did not turn into a job (they will think I am a fannullone). the truth is that the internship is not worth anything as a pay, neither from the resume point and not even as a guarantee of recruitment (because it takes only 25%).

 

[stevie]

after 2 renewals no but after 4 renewals you by law; for maximum renewals up to 2 years. but in the meantime you are paid with the minimum of ccnl metalmeccanico and not with internships etc.
What I say is exactly this: with internships I can work at 480 euro net and can send me home after 6 months, with the contract at the same time but at least I took twice as little. if they continue to make me renew up to 2 years without making me the indefinite contract at least I worked paid for 2 years and I can write in the resume that I have 2 years experience, while I dirt only the resume to write that I did an internship that then did not turn into a job (they will think I am a fannullone). the truth is that the internship is not worth anything as a pay, neither from the resume point and not even as a guarantee of recruitment (because it takes only 25%).

You're right, but what's the solution?
ban internships? or allow them only during the training period?
I agree because I consider it revolting to see children of 25 years and more paid 400-500 euros per month (refunded would be to say) to cover holes and then left at home.
I also agree that inserting an internship in resume could be counterproductive.
However it is not a problem linked only to engineering...there are those who after paying 40k euros for a mba to the mouths do internships and is not hired, the internship is never guarantee of subsequent intake.

 

[MassiVonWeizen]

after 2 renewals no but after 4 renewals you by law; for maximum renewals up to 2 years.

Excuse me, but how is the term contract definitely respected by law while the internship is not?
and who reads the resume when he sees vhe you have made ten contracts for 6 months the one who has to think?

but your working situation now what is it?

 

[asblo]

I'm so hoping for you to be a troll and you're having fun teasing everyone. write that you live in Veneto and the situation you describe is not the real one.

I am living and working here and I have changed some position recently, so I have well present the job market, the dynamics of the ads, how agencies work etc. and that a graduate engineer does not find anything valid does not exist. there is hunger for technicians and there are many beautiful companies that do interesting things. if you are really put so there is something important that you omit (neolaureated but outdated? Are you looking for work at home?). Among other things, he speaks just as one that the work has never seen or lived, only banality from sports bars. you have a tone of the employee that no one would ever want, lamenty, pretentious and approximate. excuse the frankness, but in the face of so many brilliant interventions of people from which you can only take notes for the experience and competence is grotesque see I am attitude from mule

 

[PIETRO2002]

I'm so hoping for you to be a troll and you're having fun teasing everyone. write that you live in Veneto and the situation you describe is not the real one.

I am living and working here and I have changed some position recently, so I have well present the job market, the dynamics of the ads, how agencies work etc. and that a graduate engineer does not find anything valid does not exist. there is hunger for technicians and there are many beautiful companies that do interesting things. if you are really put so there is something important that you omit (neolaureated but outdated? Are you looking for work at home?). Among other things, he speaks just as one that the work has never seen or lived, only banality from sports bars. you have a tone of the employee that no one would ever want, lamenty, pretentious and approximate. excuse the frankness, but in the face of so many brilliant interventions of people from which you can only take notes for the experience and competence is grotesque see I am attitude from mule

but the beauty that they are still giving him rope...

 

[Vittorio]

I read all your opinions and weep my heart because I realize that the current generation is experiencing badly.

I am part of the lucky generation who could work 41 years and now has a decent pension, indeed double lucky, because despite being retired for 10 years, I continue to work as an employee.

I am a slave of passion for my work, I gain well and I am slaughtered by taxes, in this way I contribute to paying my pension.

I make a premise with the hope of not boring you...

I work in a small mechanical company where more or less we are all dated and not certain young, a company common in lombardia, where there is a owner with children who do not want to continue the activity of the father, consequently the company survives to bring to the pension those few remaining with that stupid age that, for the productive society, are neither meat nor fish.

I don’t feel like stealing the job to young people, the reality is that we don’t find young people who want to do my/our job, so much so that the search for staff has always been open to give a business continuity.

in most cases people arrive at the interview with the idea of sitting in front of the computer and starting to design. When the possibility is ventilated, starting with work in the workshop to learn the methods, they stiffen and the phrase "we will let you know" is not pronounced by the owner but by the candidate himself.

about the difference between an engineer and an expert, I believe that culture is fundamental because the “knowledge” is indispensable and is useful also for the most humble works, what is missing is the desire to absorb the experience of others, to “steal” the craft as it was said in my time.

the few candidates who accepted my position, resisted little and however did not want to ask why of what they were doing and did not put anything of their own. they were shocking because reality was very different from the expectations promised by the studies made.

I have anger inside because all my experience (opinable),matured in 50 years, is thrown into the toilet because I can not transmit it to anyone.

the new hires feel underpaid and subtracts the beat of balls but you can not even expect to earn little less than those who have matured years of experience.

I have spent so many hours on strike for working rights, but it is also true that in the fury of pulling the rope.. who benefited from it were above all lazzaroni and meritocracy has disappeared.

the blame is not only of the school, but it is also of us parents because we hardly admit the limits of their children so as to direct them to a work more consonant to their nature and without illudering them with expectations from science fiction.

 

[PIETRO2002]

I read all your opinions and weep my heart because I realize that the current generation is experiencing badly.

I am part of the lucky generation who could work 41 years and now has a decent pension, indeed double lucky, because despite being retired for 10 years, I continue to work as an employee.

I am a slave of passion for my work, I gain well and I am slaughtered by taxes, in this way I contribute to paying my pension.

I make a premise with the hope of not boring you...

I work in a small mechanical company where more or less we are all dated and not certain young, a company common in lombardia, where there is a owner with children who do not want to continue the activity of the father, consequently the company survives to bring to the pension those few remaining with that stupid age that, for the productive society, are neither meat nor fish.

I don’t feel like stealing the job to young people, the reality is that we don’t find young people who want to do my/our job, so much so that the search for staff has always been open to give a business continuity.

in most cases people arrive at the interview with the idea of sitting in front of the computer and starting to design. When the possibility is ventilated, starting with work in the workshop to learn the methods, they stiffen and the phrase "we will let you know" is not pronounced by the owner but by the candidate himself.

about the difference between an engineer and an expert, I believe that culture is fundamental because the “knowledge” is indispensable and is useful also for the most humble works, what is missing is the desire to absorb the experience of others, to “steal” the craft as it was said in my time.

the few candidates who accepted my position, resisted little and however did not want to ask why of what they were doing and did not put anything of their own. they were shocking because reality was very different from the expectations promised by the studies made.

I have anger inside because all my experience (opinable),matured in 50 years, is thrown into the toilet because I can not transmit it to anyone.

the new hires feel underpaid and subtracts the beat of balls but you can not even expect to earn little less than those who have matured years of experience.

I have spent so many hours on strike for working rights, but it is also true that in the fury of pulling the rope.. who benefited from it were above all lazzaroni and meritocracy has disappeared.

the blame is not only of the school, but it is also of us parents because we hardly admit the limits of their children so as to direct them to a work more consonant to their nature and without illudering them with expectations from science fiction.

What more? You said everything!

 

[gtsolid]

I speak from 31-year-old manager: being the master's son I always lived "good" in the sense that I always did what I wanted. I'm lucky in the sense that I was born "capable" say, at least above average, and that I never fucked. I took advantage of my situation within the limits of the legal, in the sense that I took the work I preferred. but also in them at the end there was to bring home the result.
I have to say that with the current level of well-being, it is reduced to attribute all the causes of Malayseri to work. Life is fluid and touches all the keys it can touch.
For example, I can take Malaysians into work or out of work, for example in case you suffer loneliness out of work or that I know, I can't take home that chess tournament I had so much on. I would also stress what has become the modern world and its fragility inherent in each of us.
It's no longer the time of necessity (my grandfather who makes me aware that I don't accept too much the piagnists of workers in mutual... reasonable, some feel slaves, others are chills) and this leads to nihilistic considerations. no sense, no purpose, etc... they come out of existential dramas. It's not just a matter of missing promises, they're just "dreams" of adolescence that don't come to light.
I also have my dissatisfaction, despite my condition, we can talk about it in detail, but it's not just the system, it's also how the man has placed himself against the system he has come to create.

ps, five years after graduation, the average salary of the eng is on 2k and 160h monthly. average, according to the statistics of my university's (Turin policy). So you also have to be honest with yourself, if you are under that figure, something is wrong and you can do better.

 

[mymecc]

Good morning, I'm rotten, an engineer... in theory.
I tell you my story:
I graduated master's degree in mechanical engineering at 26 years because I started a year after college and lost a year in three years. It wasn't easy. economic problems, feeling a failure, fighting in the family, feeling offended by everything and by everyone, not feeling good at doing anything, but eventually I did it. I hate college, but I love mechanics. I hate the university system that only teaches what you don't need at work; I hate the fact that I came out that I couldn't do anything about anything. I hate so many college things, but the thing I hate most of all is that they lied to me all this time. it is not true that the university serves to find work; it is not true that the university serves to work; It's not for success. The university helps.... help? It helps. But how much? Here is this you never told me you professors, you proud engineers with capital with belly (pink) inside and chest outside... helps to find work more than one degree in letters but less than a simple paid course of 500euro. It seems mental that I did. I really thought the only way to look for work was to study six years? I didn't think that if I had turned 1 year every day looking for work I wouldn't have found a job like that or, indeed, probably a better job?
I tell you the truth, I don't want to lie to you because it's not right to do it, so I say: stop at the diploma, look for work and if you don't find it easily you do 1 cad course, if you don't just do a cam course and if you don't just take all the solidworks certifications or any software that comes to mind. I guarantee that it will be easier to become "certified solidworks expert" than to take even three years in engineering. and I assure you that to work is much more ulite (but much more) a certificate that graduates in mechanical engineering. you are curious and you want to understand why and for what? honor to you, you are like me. but also in that case the university is to be rejected. If you are curious, take information about the books used by students at the university (or even better pass the notes of the lessons from them), read on Saturday night and get back to work on Monday morning. because boys the truth is that after 5 years (if, maybe :roflmao of study are 1300 European net (after 6 months of internship ....so if you are a phenomenon the first salary of 1300 European nets you get to 25 years, but sincerely from the.... from us start in 70 and they graduate in 5 to session then I would say to 26 years... maybe even 27 in a year gone while instead your friend has started working at 20 years (it is because a year is taking us a year of pacchia) takes already at least 1500/1600, has a plan of life, soon will ask for the increase and shortly will buy house with the partner. What about you? nothing you are 26 years old with a hunger salary and you still have to live with your other 5 years to think about buying house with the partner (always if you are, because oh engineers do not go stealing and sincerely it is right so since we are ugly, dislike and poor in barrel).
engineer = success? No, work = success. !
I already work... because even here I see that a graduate has more desire than a college graduate. we graduates are exhausted, tired, lame... empty. because it is not easy to admit to ourselves that we have lost too much and earned nothing.
The only real thing that taught me my study trip is that I learned not to believe in promises. Mechanical engineering is a promise.

I hope to have been useful to a curious boy like I was and who loved mechanics as I loved her not to spoil as I did.
p.s no I am not a particular case, indeed I am lucky that I have been framed well (sometimes make even 1200.......). ccnl for a master engineer is a 5s go to see that net is sia.

 

[mymecc]

Good morning, I'm rotten, an engineer... in theory.
I tell you my story:
I graduated master's degree in mechanical engineering at 26 years because I started a year after college and lost a year in three years. It wasn't easy. economic problems, feeling a failure, fighting in the family, feeling offended by everything and by everyone, not feeling good at doing anything, but eventually I did it. I hate college, but I love mechanics. I hate the university system that only teaches what you don't need at work; I hate the fact that I came out that I couldn't do anything about anything. I hate so many college things, but the thing I hate most of all is that they lied to me all this time. it is not true that the university serves to find work; it is not true that the university serves to work; It's not for success. The university helps.... help? It helps. But how much? Here is this you never told me you professors, you proud engineers with capital with belly (pink) inside and chest outside... helps to find work more than one degree in letters but less than a simple paid course of 500euro. It seems mental that I did. I really thought the only way to look for work was to study six years? I didn't think that if I had turned 1 year every day looking for work I wouldn't have found a job like that or, indeed, probably a better job?
I tell you the truth, I don't want to lie to you because it's not right to do it, so I say: stop at the diploma, look for work and if you don't find it easily you do 1 cad course, if you don't just do a cam course and if you don't just take all the solidworks certifications or any software that comes to mind. I guarantee that it will be easier to become "certified solidworks expert" than to take even three years in engineering. and I assure you that to work is much more ulite (but much more) a certificate that graduates in mechanical engineering. you are curious and you want to understand why and for what? honor to you, you are like me. but also in that case the university is to be rejected. If you are curious, take information about the books used by students at the university (or even better pass the notes of the lessons from them), read on Saturday night and get back to work on Monday morning. because boys the truth is that after 5 years (if, maybe :roflmao of study are 1300 European net (after 6 months of internship ....so if you are a phenomenon the first salary of 1300 European nets you get to 25 years, but sincerely from the.... from us start in 70 and they graduate in 5 to session then I would say to 26 years... maybe even 27 in a year gone while instead your friend has started working at 20 years (it is because a year is taking us a year of pacchia) takes already at least 1500/1600, has a plan of life, soon will ask for the increase and shortly will buy house with the partner. What about you? nothing you are 26 years old with a hunger salary and you still have to live with your other 5 years to think about buying house with the partner (always if you are, because oh engineers do not go stealing and sincerely it is right so since we are ugly, dislike and poor in barrel).
engineer = success? No, work = success. !
I already work... because even here I see that a graduate has more desire than a college graduate. we graduates are exhausted, tired, lame... empty. because it is not easy to admit to ourselves that we have lost too much and earned nothing.
The only real thing that taught me my study trip is that I learned not to believe in promises. Mechanical engineering is a promise.

I hope to have been useful to a curious boy like I was and who loved mechanics as I loved her not to spoil as I did.
p.s no I am not a particular case, indeed I am lucky that I have been framed well (sometimes make even 1200.......). ccnl for a master engineer is a 5s go to see that net is

Can you contact me?

 

[stevie]

I still do not understand what faults or shortcomings the Italian university would have. . .

 

[wert]

I still do not understand what faults or shortcomings the Italian university would have. . .

I try to throw a hypothesis there, although I know that it is probably not applicable: put the number closed to the inscriptions, like what happens to medicine. theoretically, in this way they would avoid under the task of engineers. but already now the number closed to medicine is stably questioned, so I doubt that they can extend this method to other faculties.

 

[cacciatorino]

I try to throw a hypothesis there, although I know that it is probably not applicable: put the number closed to the inscriptions, like what happens to medicine. theoretically, in this way they would avoid under the task of engineers. but already now the number closed to medicine is stably questioned, so I doubt that they can extend this method to other faculties.

I don't think it's a good idea: companies have problems finding designers for the technical office (we think that in a short time they will retire a large mass of "boomers"), if we further reduce the new levers will mean meeting a future of shepherding. we should have as objective the growth of the system in broad sense, not the corporate protection of a category.

 

[wert]

I don't think it's a good idea: companies have problems finding designers for the technical office (we think that in a short time they will retire a large mass of "boomers"), if we further reduce the new levers will mean meeting a future of shepherding. we should have as objective the growth of the system in broad sense, not the corporate protection of a category.

From the problem exposed to the root of this discussion, if you want graduates to carry out the tasks for which the bouquet has been studied, I think there are not so many alternatives. then it is also true what you say... If they make the number closed to engineering, then it would take an awareness campaign so that mechanical experts who do not pass the engineering test are encouraged to go immediately to work. . but we know that to make parents happy, rather they would enroll in political science or communication to bring home a degree... That is why I wrote that my proposal would not be easy to implement.

 

[cacciatorino]

From the problem exposed to the root of this discussion, if you want graduates to carry out the tasks for which the bouquet has been studied, I think there are not so many alternatives. then it is also true what you say... If they make the number closed to engineering, then it would take an awareness campaign so that mechanical experts who do not pass the engineering test are encouraged to go immediately to work. . but we know that to make parents happy, rather they would enroll in political science or communication to bring home a degree... That is why I wrote that my proposal would not be easy to implement.

from my personal experience (small, for charity, but based on research done in recent years to insert young people into my study), all new graduates in mechanics are enrolled in engineering or go to work immediately, most times ahime' in workshop and not in u.t.

 

[DrBarde]

from my personal experience (small, for charity, but based on research done in recent years to insert young people into my study), all new graduates in mechanics are enrolled in engineering or go to work immediately, most times ahime' in workshop and not in u.t.

This is because the companies today do not take an expert for the use. Although, from what I could see in (just for the love of the sky, they are only 8 and something) years of work, in a mechanical ut of a manufacturing company that makes custom products would suffice a couple of engineers who make engineers and a 7/8 mechanical experts who do the rest. then I speak of a technical office of 10/15 people because by doing planting the amount of work is not indifferent, perhaps in reality minors would be enough an engineer and 4/5 experts would not know.