bim, eat mai questo ritardo?

[lance]

bim is a process/metodology not a software....the bim also do it with paper and pencil only employing us much more time.. .

from this it is deduced that it is not possible to buy a license so much to be in order, (it is why there is so much resistance in Italy). if implemented correctly, before drawing a line of the project it is necessary to lay a bep (building executive plan) in which process by process (i.e. for every activity necessary to complete the work) there are process maps precisely in which it is indicated: the responsible part of the activities, the information necessary to carry out the work, those who produced them (in case they depend on a previous work) that has validated them out (always from the previous activity) those who have validated them incoming, what information will be produced from the process now running, and to those who will serve (more various other things). names and surnames of the responsible are written in clear letters as well as what you expect from them and in what times. bim manager and bim specialist the figures deputated to control, between the atro divided into different disciplines.
It is simply not possible to cheat, unless the system of "simpatie" is something very vast that includes levels that go beyond the official. here is revealed the reason why the bim in italia stenta take off.

As for the quality of the elaborates if you know how to do (file size aside) you can safely shape up to the single screw of each building, the modeling is really the last of the problems. interoperability coordination and definition of the purposes (and as a result of the information to be entered) are the real difficulties of the process.

@G
depends on the type of intervention. with the bim system have reconstructed us ground zero; I sincerely think that between structures, plants, infrastructure, and all that contained in the envelope we have abundantly exceeded the complexity of a ship and the number of components (although building a ship is an epic undertaking). I know of bim managers who handle projects from over 60000 elements and we are far from the scale of a neighborhood. . .

 

[enri]

Well I didn't want to say that it is more complex, but problematic, I'm certainly not updated on the sw bim, never used one really as you should, but I doubt that it can parameterize everything until the executive. apart from the ship, which is one of those cases apart, in mechanics, engines, etc., I rarely think you realize something manually from drawings, you always rely on numerical control machines, making molds, automated processes, etc., procedures that use more and more the three-dimensional model directly, hence a smaller number of project development issues, correct me if I'm wrong.

 

[marcof]

if implemented correctly, before drawing a line of the project it is necessary to lay a bep (building executive plan) in which process by process (i.e. for every activity necessary to complete the work) there are process maps precisely in which it is indicated: the responsible part of the activities, the information necessary to carry out the work, those who produced them (in case they depend on a previous work) that has validated them out (always from the previous activity) those who have validated them incoming, what information will be produced from the process now running, and to those who will serve (more various other things). names and surnames of the responsible are written in clear letters as well as what you expect from them and in what times. bim manager and bim specialist the figures deputated to control, between the atro divided into different disciplines.
It is simply not possible to cheat, unless the system of "simpatie" is something very vast that includes levels that go beyond the official. here is revealed the reason why the bim in italia stenta take off.

It would be said that in the field of building software it has passed (or you want to pass) from one extreme to another. from the tecnigraph or little more (autocad) to an integrated system also with those of the weather forecast.
a geometra who must design a block of three garages what he does, sells a kidney? :smile:
it would be as if a mechanical company that uses a cad3d of 5-6000 euros per license to design and produce some conveyor belt or a bit of carpentry for which it does not exploit even 30% of the potential of that cad should equip itself with caia or nx to complete all the modules not even be boeing, selling itself a kidney (or even two...)

 

[cacciatorino]

It would be said that in the field of building software it has passed (or you want to pass) from one extreme to another. from the tecnigraph or little more (autocad) to an integrated system also with those of the weather forecast.
a geometra who must design a block of three garages what he does, sells a kidney? :smile:
it would be as if a mechanical company that uses a cad3d of 5-6000 euros per license to design and produce some conveyor belt or a bit of carpentry for which it does not exploit even 30% of the potential of that cad should equip itself with caia or nx to complete all the modules not even be boeing, selling itself a kidney (or even two...)

from what I have understood by reading this discussion, a bim system is more similar to a plm (making analogy with the mechanical/manufacturer) than to a simple cad.

According to things, and also given the mandatory paventata, I would see that the "master" system with all project data is located at the contracting public body (or for him), and then the individual designer connects to it only for the data of his competence (plant, structural, thermal, architectural, etc.) and therefore having to equip himself only of the limited cost. This would certainly ensure the consistency of design data, and would allow an integrated design at an acceptable cost.

 

[enri]

but then there is bim and bim. depends on the project, an account is the villa made in revit, an account the stage of pawn made, indeed realized with the help of digital project (catch for architecture) where the times and ways of the yard have been established, in short if the project is not complex, you do really first with autocad, you do not go to complicate life

 

[numero1]

It would be said that in the field of building software it has passed (or you want to pass) from one extreme to another. from the tecnigraph or little more (autocad) to an integrated system also with those of the weather forecast.
a geometra who must design a block of three garages what he does, sells a kidney? :smile:
it would be as if a mechanical company that uses a cad3d of 5-6000 euros per license to design and produce some conveyor belt or a bit of carpentry for which it does not exploit even 30% of the potential of that cad should equip itself with caia or nx to complete all the modules not even be boeing, selling itself a kidney (or even two...)

but then there is bim and bim. depends on the project, an account is the villa made in revit, an account the stage of pawn made, indeed realized with the help of digital project (catch for architecture) where the times and ways of the yard have been established, in short if the project is not complex, you do really first with autocad, you do not go to complicate life

You are saying the same thing, and I agree, you should establish a strict reference scale for the projects to be done in bim.
you have to use it, under no......
I don't know if anyone has already done it (maybe abroad) and so I don't even know what the hypothetical reference values have been taken.
Does anyone have any news? ?

 

[numero1]

from what I have understood by reading this discussion, a bim system is more similar to a plm (making analogy with the mechanical/manufacturer) than to a simple cad.

According to things, and also given the mandatory paventata, I would see that the "master" system with all project data is located at the contracting public body (or for him), and then the individual designer connects to it only for the data of his competence (plant, structural, thermal, architectural, etc.) and therefore having to equip himself only of the limited cost. This would certainly ensure the consistency of design data, and would allow an integrated design at an acceptable cost.

It is not assimilate, it must go along with a plm, or something similar to a plm.
the rest of your post is theoretically correct, but not practically.
Hi.

 

[marcof]

but then there is bim and bim. depends on the project, an account is the villa made in revit, an account the stage of pawn made, indeed realized with the help of digital project (catch for architecture) where the times and ways of the yard have been established, in short if the project is not complex, you do really first with autocad, you do not go to complicate life

you say that there is the bim that is the equivalent of supercarroized catia for mechanics and then there is the other bim, which I deduce is the equivalent of solidworks rather than inventor but then conclude that making us the cottage is a complication and do first with autocad, that is you do first with an electronic tecnigraph that with a parametric cad.
in the mechanics, if you remain within the limits of each cad3d, parametric or contextual that is, to finish a project, including changes (not making two sketches of maximum eh...) do before with any cad2d type autocad.

iho this means that the bim to make the house (i.e. the equivalent of solidworks for mechanics) is made with feet. point.

 

[Tristan]

If the project is not complex, do really first with autocad, do not go to complicate life

I don't really agree. and I also want to remind you that a project (especially in the preliminary/definitive stage) is not always perfect. you have the customer cocksucker that every time you scroll comes to mind to let you move an item. quantifies the time you use to make a variant in autocad and revit (I quote this because it is the software I know and use). .

 

[Tristan]

iho this means that the bim to make the house (i.e. the equivalent of solidworks for mechanics) is made with feet. point.

Right. If things were really so I would give you reason, but in my humble opinion they are not actually as it says

 

[lory.b]

yesterday I attended a conference on the bim.
there were many engineering companies mainly, few architects, who are taking the big step.
the difficulties there are, is a methodology of work that offers advantages over the long term but requires an initial investment not indifferent between software and training. bim software, all, have limits, which have been repeatedly highlighted.
But the transition is happening. the companies operating abroad must be competitive with the rest of Europe, especially with the land, which on the bim question is already light years ahead and is ready to export its new skills.
There's no choice. and no one is repented or is thinking of going back.

 

[gfrank]

in my opinion, among the employees, in true meaning of the bim is still lacunous ...
as he said before lance, the bim can also be done with paper and pencil, as the hazelnut is the "information" contained in the model.
but the crucial point is:
- what and how much information do I need to insert into the model?
- how should they be exchanged (imported/exported)?
the identified standard is (it should be) the ifc – industry foundation classes, which consists of a digital model for the project of integrated architecture and engineering of data and properties of all elements, work parts and systems that make up the building organism, structure its geometry, topology and attributes in a single database that also records the set of relationships of each element.
It is therefore necessary that there is an obligation (normative) to design (pass the term : to draw) according to this standard, and of course, after the project, also the contract, supplies, construction and preservation (maintenance) of the work, at an informative level, must operate with reference to these standards.
the manufacturers of the building components, always at the information level, must adapt.
in a few words, you will have to work with a process that involves the whole "phile" of the buildings.
design, is the first step (the most important), but this also means that those who interact, in the first line, with the design: designers, public offices (in particulate utc), customers, manufacturers of sw, etc..., must adapt to these standards.
today, at most, utc require a pdf file, designers (parecchi) confuse bim with 3d software.
We should start a journey, as we are developing, for example, in the fiscal field with the "electronic invoice".
the software, subsequently, if necessary, will follow ....

 

[enri]

I don't really agree. and I also want to remind you that a project (especially in the preliminary/definitive stage) is not always perfect. you have the customer cocksucker that every time you scroll comes to mind to let you move an item. quantifies the time you use to make a variant in autocad and revit (I quote this because it is the software I know and use). .

from my was a provocation, autocad is never an alternative to a good bim, like revit, or archicad to name two of the most used, even just to make the house, but one thing is certain, to pass to the bim, and here we are talking about software applied to a procedure, it is not immediate and simple thing vector, as lory says, (and they have employed years to pass, that I think it is in progress, despite digital project is not used by architects generally, but by engineering companies that are preparing to build very complex and large buildings, such as the pechino stage, the architectural 3d model was made with formz. Here is another point to disadvantage of the bim, is the geometric complexity reached, with simplicity, I would add, many studies in the contests, given the type of projects, they use a lot of rhino with plugins, although possible, to make those forms becomes uneasy, therefore the process, with the 3d done elsewhere, is broken.

 

[cad3d]

bim is a process/metodology not a software....the bim also do it with paper and pencil only employing us much more time.. .

the description of a building through its 3d representation I think is an indispensable element in order to be able to hook automatisms and procedures in bim optical. otherwise I do not understand how to extract information as quantity for the compute, thermohygrometric characteristics etc.

 

[lance]

You are, in my opinion, confusing building information modelling with building information model.
In the first case it is a question of identifying processes to facilitate an integrated design, in the second to build a model that provides a graphic representation of the geometric, physical characteristics, etc. of the elements that constitute a construction.
it is clear that the presence of the second facility enormously the procedures defined by the first; but it is also true that at the base of everything there is a database that contains all the elements to which attributes (characteristic) are associated with their respective values. the structure of a database is schematized and reproducible on paper, then theoretically, the bim is feasible with paper and pencil. then how much time you use and how many mistakes you make is another story.

 

[gfrank]

the state of art:http://www.uni.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=3496&itemid=2523http://www.uni.com/index.php?option...e-in-normazione-tecnica&catid=171&itemid=2612

 

[gil]

seems to push the level of computerization ever higher.
the confrontation with reality will be very hard. the skills required for the use of this system (and software, as specified in the article) are far beyond the average level of Italian technicians, even for young ones.

on the horizon I begin to glimpse the “papocchio all’itagliana”.

 

[gfrank]

Well, know:http://www.progettarearchitettura.it/i-lod-nel-bim-i-liveli-di-sviluppo/

 

[Tristan]

http://www.progettarearchitettura.it/i-lod-nel-bim-i-liveli-di-sviluppo/

Lance, do your ears whistle? :36_1_11:

 

[gil]

Yes, yes, beautiful... in theory.
a pity that right now I called a study because they made drawings that would offend even a child of the kindergarten, so gross that no one, not even them, understand what they have speculated.
For example, we have doubts whether certain conessions should be welded or bolted, as detailed as they are. we're talking about a yard of tens of millions of euros, which is spread in engineering and architecture magazines as at the top of the design.

And then I see people doing mental pippes with the "lod500"!