i don't like revit

[MirkoNEO]

I throw myself to fish... I am so critical by nature.. .
roberto 2011 does not have all the twists, revit is by its nature a little complicated. . .
But I want to talk about the wrong management of the bim problem in Italy. I explain better, in a country that considers the plan of granting a scheme (muri from 30 then if you do them more thick does not do anything but exaggerate), a country that intimates you to deliver together to the scheme a plan for the energy efficiency, forcing you to turn to a third professional because you do not have time to stay behind the babele that is the norm in this field, in a country where the coma
in Italy (experience of a luster in heavy prefabrication) is no longer standardized even prefabrication... and how do we standardize a house! for me it is impossible, and it is impossible to standardize a program that must pull out all of the house!
I think the only way out is a 2d autocad with solutions for architectural design. the bim in a 3d we Italians can not pull it out now as now. . .

p.s.: I'm talking about a normal free professional, and not a mega studio with 50 or even 5 subpaid trainees who shove hours and hours.... Here is the free professional who has a studio, makes "normal" buildings and you have to interface with the municipality, the civil genius, the catasto.. .

 

[roberto 2011]

I throw myself to fish... ....
I'm talking about a normal free professional, and not a mega studio with 50 or even 5 subpaid trainees who shove hours and hours.... Here is the free professional who has a studio, makes "normal" buildings and you have to interface with the municipality, the civil genius, the catasto.. .

I share you up to the signature with professional stamp!!!! :

 

[MB78]

Bye to all,
Nice discussion! I also add my famous "2cents" for what they are worth. As you say, roberto, I bring my experience, if it can help someone.
I tried revit for the first time in 2002, at university, I couldn't even draw a wall. 10 min after I uninstalled, I had to run, take exams
and I had no time to learn anything that was not immediate (type sketchup to understand us). in 2005 stufo marcio di autocad and with the desire to improve a bit the yield, convinced by the usual demo of a commercial, therefore without any stain, I convince the study where I worked to buy it and I'm engaged to study on it.
obviously on lunch break or similar. here I recall your statement, which I share, that revit does not decode; Well in my province graphisoft retailers
There are, and they push their product, I have met revit with the demo that made me a self-desk dealer of another province and take into account that I have a dealer
autodesk gold partner for the aec 5 minutes drive from the studio.. autodesk is the victim of his own creations, autocads sell it to you on the phone and without difficulty, who gives it to him
You're making a fool of going around making a demo? families: in revit a family we can say that the "models" in archicad the "programs" and in the true sense of the word
I had studied gdl at the time (the programming language of archicad objects) here you are right to become a "programmer and not a building designer" because in the end it is like programming in basic. in revit the family drawings, ok with geometric primitives, but it is definitely a system more close to the way of thinking of a designer than programming. .
When I went to revit, I invested a lot on training, I used the Christmas holidays and the summer ones to study the manuals written by the American gurus, then by the Italians, I took a week away for an intensive course. But now I personalize everything I like, I enjoy designing (of course always starting from a sheet of paper) and as architekno, I look for other professionals looking in my own direction. wise words those of asalap the bim is a design method, and it is to learn. learning autocad is easy, because it is a tecnigraph with the mouse, changes the input device not the way to reason and anyone who made a technical school knows how to use a tecnigraph.
for two final laughter, this summer I designed a wood/deposit tool (12mq), clear in revit, I made the abacs of the sections of the wooden bars that I had to use, used a nesting program 1d to optimize the cuts and reduce the sphericals and Saturday I am built, without hits without waste, is a cannon to shoot mosquitoes, true, but it is also intelligent design. give a nice beer with spears and good profession to all!

bye
mb

 

[roberto 2011]

give a nice beer with spears and good profession to all!

Of course! Here we are discussing only on a work programme, certainly not on the personal level.

We have given them a little with spears and tristan, but always with mutual respect and, at least on my part, also sympathy. :

 

[incasinata]

Of course! Here we are discussing only on a work programme, certainly not on the personal level.

We have given them a little with spears and tristan, but always with mutual respect and, at least on my part, also sympathy. :

Of course....otherwise, this is "my house" (with gfrank) and leave the randellate if there is no mutual respect :4460:

 

[roberto 2011]

Of course....otherwise, this is "my house" (with gfrank) and leave the randellate if there is no mutual respect :4460:

:36_3_11:

 

[lance]

I never thought I'd say that, but...

 

[gfrank]

I throw myself to fish... I am so critical by nature.. .
...
But I want to talk about the wrong management of the bim problem in Italy. I explain better, in a country that considers the plan of granting a scheme (hard by 30 then if you make them thicker does nothing enough that you do not exaggerate), a country that I intimate you to deliver together to the scheme a plan for energy efficiency forcing you to turn to a third professional because you do not have time to stay behind the babele that is the norm
....

I think the only way out is a 2d autocad with solutions for architectural design. the bim in a 3d we Italians can not pull it out now as now. . .

p.s.: I'm talking about a normal free professional, and not a mega studio with 50 or even 5 subpaid trainees who shove hours and hours.... Here is the free professional who has a studio, makes "normal" buildings and you have to interface with the municipality, the civil genius, the catasto.. .

I disagree.
or better, as was said in previous posts, the bim is a design method (and not a sw).
reduced to the minimum terms, the bim is an archive in which all project/construction information is contained.
when you open a "archive" where you put the drawing/project boards, documentation for the various entities (pdc/dia/scia) the authorizations of the go agencies, calculations and structural tables, energy/acoustic calculations, calculations/schemes/drafts/ safety documentation/ execution drawings of construction site/ certifications of materials and plants/ testing (of any type/ more

all qusto can be done with a swan sw 2d, paper and pencil, a sw for electronic sheet and text (I don't make company names) a paper card, the drawer and the closet.
It's okay.

as you yourself said, the amount of information to manage is remarkable, and of course a variant made in the course of design, cascade, has repercussions on everything downstream.
if after a few years you need to take back that "practice" the difficulties are not few.

Here then, in the era of computer science, the dedicated sw propondono for the collection, preservation, and their reuse (update).

If these sw are different, but interlocate among them, you are at good point.

better yet, if few (or even one) allows the management completely.

also a sw 2d allows the insertion of all information, from design to list information, but clearly the entity of the "work time" is different, using a dedicated sw.
We do not forget that in addition to input data, there are output data, which depending on the sw used are available in different times and formats.
We do not forget the need for variant/revision/update, which always depends on the sw used, as they are available in different times and formats.
It is normal that the evolution of the tools used (we only think of the archive of the paper, once paper, today computerized), entails a bettermant of the product and the "conditions" of work.

Today, the need to dialogue with those around us (always speaking in the field of work) denied the availability of adequate tools, which speak the same language.
you yourself said that you only take care of a part (in person) of the process (building) but still you have to have the support of other technicians. if the exchange of information is correct, everything works, otherwise ....
In conclusion, in order not to be bored, I think it is essential that there is an evolution of the instruments themselves, otherwise we would still draw lines with paper and pencil...

 

[MirkoNEO]

@ gfrank
Your speech does not bend, perfect would be a wonderful thing like that... but at present there is not, or better there is but not everything as should be for the particularity of the Italian market, both for the Italian legislation, both for the collaborators you want or do not want are those and those do not follow you in this adventure.. .
I give you a very trivial example: I have to make a contract of 100.000€, I must prepare a computation and I already have everything in 3d. but the computation is not a simple sheet of excel, a collection of uneven values, but a reasoned drafting of geometric information (length x width x height/weight) traceable on the design. this for example is a limit with which I fight every day with revit, do everything in 3d you have all the information, even how many slats persiane there are in a building, but to string you do not have in automatic length x width x height/weight, readable and traceable.
I repeat beautiful everything, beautiful the concept of bim, but the bim here from us or embrace everyone and all stick to what you pull out with the bim, or the bim does not help you. take the previous example, I do the compute, I throw out the quantities and then hand over to the enterprise (also put to family run and with ultrasix years technical) along with the revit model in a cd and I tell him that to control the quantities can well open the file of revit and control it... at this point he follows a pernacchione from the company and a figure in front of the customer.. .
They seem stupid, but in the end it's what matters... then go explain to the customer that you work with a bim but cannot make the work understand (dimensionally and economically)?
I repeat, you want to do an immanent job but that then remains truncated... This is what I think and match in reality.
Then it's normal if you work in Milan, do a job of 50 million euros and find employees who think like you, you've done... but me in the province that I do?
I also tell you that I should ask the rights to those as acca or str planswift, why do you know how much I repeat to him that I don't need the totals in a computation, but the dimensions that lead me to those totals? About 10 years and every time str calls me to sell planswift, the seller on the phone you know he answers me? It tells me that this need is many, who are working on it and that as soon as they have something they will let me know. . .
I'll go to magnà! good appetite and good vinello to all (then I am on a diet... )

 

[gfrank]

Just as you said, I'm evaluating other sw.
I quote names, but I do not make the seller, I use many products of the h, and I find myself well.
the problems you have exposed, it seems to me that do not exist, the latest versions of primus, can be managed on all (or almost) elementary or total groupings, which need.
more for a few years the site of the h offers (after free registration) a series of spaces and other tools, where:
- do the cm
- Export a semimodified file
- send it to the company
- with freeware products (primus dcf) the company puts prices (solo i prezzi) any discount, can add new prices
- It's all right.
a single document, not editable in basic data, by third parties, which "travels" among users.
It's not easy.

In addition, the same drawings (for now dwg/dxf) on which, by means of a cad 2/3d (schematic) insert intelligent objects (family laws) such as windows walls, etc. that can be used (exported/imported) between the various sw, to make computed, thermotechnical, acoustics, structures, (also drawing 2d _ from gross).
from a compute written with h it is possible to "extract" work to draw a psc (and vice versa), from a drawing the planimetry (also 3d) to attach to the psc, with computation of the burdens of safety. we do not forget the scaffolding, both for the pimus, and for the calculation, if necessary.
Now, it would seem, that with buildingsus, the graphic part (real drawing) is implemented both in 2d and 3d with rendering, which forms the joint ring with all the other h sw.

I'm waiting to see...

 

[gilli]

every once in a while, it comes roberto... and here are the usual laments... always and always the same....
- walls
-Hi.
-scale
- topographic surface
-ribbon
- Me?
- fake hards (30-33)
- red yellow
-stampe pdf
No, no, he's never coming.
Bye.

 

[MirkoNEO]

@ gfrank
personal opinion, do not demand too much from buildingsus.. .
However I am waiting to evaluate the coupling cadh+primus... This time they did something good in the appearance of the size... Hopefully. .

 

[gfrank]

In this way, it is considered to have a bim management. of course my, being a small study, I use colleagues who use the same products, but I look like a proper "computer support".
also those who participate in a piece of the process (business/artigian laws) have computer tools, free, that complete/continue, the process, without the need to "learn" the specific use of sw (put the prices is like filling out an excel sheet)

 

[lance]

fully agreed with gfrank. revit is not a program for the metric compute, it is, to resume the speech in general, an archive of information concerning the project that you can consult according to the need- create of the abachi of quantity on which, in agreement, you can also carry out operations that in some cases may be sufficient for a sort of computation, but it is not their purpose. to make a correct compute you have to interface with other software, trivializing, even a simple spreadsheet. the goal, hope, dream, is that the evolution of the computer means leads to a unique software that manages everything allowing us to easily design with the bim method, which is a method not a program.
the acca products are excellent and if buildingsus should really be up to a thought I certainly do it....the unknown however are many. . .export to the dwg format with which at least initially it must be able to dialogue... degree of customization of the allowed objects. ...flexibility (well the architectonic but I with revit I also do so much contract)...motor of rendering to the height...I guess we will see.... remains the fact that everyone moves in the direction of the bim and for me it is that counts..:wink:

 

[MirkoNEO]

@ gfrank
here from me if you tell someone about "computer tools" pull out the old calculator (you know the currency converter for the passage from lire/euro) and with air fair they tell you not to worry... I'm sick. I want to come up to you. I'd done a dozen years ago.

 

[MirkoNEO]

@ lance
I also fully agree with you, but unfortunately the times are those that are and I cannot jump from software to another... We hope well, so if the thing is feasible and h did a good job things could improve. . but I don't hope so much....
Bye!

Excuse the double post...

 

[gfrank]

every once in a while, it comes roberto... and here are the usual laments... always and always the same....
- walls
-Hi.
-scale
- topographic surface
-ribbon
- Me?
- fake hards (30-33)
- red yellow
-stampe pdf
No, no, he's never coming.
Bye.

In fact, I'm at the window to see...
However, if the philosophy of work is the same one that uses today for cad 2d its own, (to understand the one present in termus) made up of the appropriate developments, I don't think it is bad.
In fact currently, the 2d design mode is composed of:
- a process of inserting elements with their physical characteristics, which seen in graphic form suck, in the sense that you see pieces of wall intersecting each other, without any connection;
- a second display, let's call it drawing, which collects all the perimeters of the elements. In practice we see a 2d design, elementary but "clean".
Of course developing a 3d is another thing, but...

p.s. in the meantime h anuincia, the exit of a cad 2d (a kind of autocad), which does what is said in the previous post.

 

[gfrank]

fully agreed with gfrank. revit is not a program for the metric compute, it is, to resume the speech in general, an archive of information concerning the project that you can consult according to the need- create of the abachi of quantity on which, in agreement, you can also carry out operations that in some cases may be sufficient for a sort of computation, but it is not their purpose. to make a correct compute you have to interface with other software, trivializing, even a simple spreadsheet. the goal, hope, dream, is that the evolution of the computer means leads to a unique software that manages everything allowing us to easily design with the bim method, which is a method not a program.
the acca products are excellent and if buildingsus should really be up to a thought I certainly do it....the unknown however are many. . .export to the dwg format with which at least initially it must be able to dialogue... degree of customization of the allowed objects. ...flexibility (well the architectonic but I with revit I also do so much contract)...motor of rendering to the height...I guess we will see.... remains the fact that everyone moves in the direction of the bim and for me it is that counts..:wink:

I use revit from version 5.0 or 5.1, I do not remember well, and I must say that I am satisfied with the sw.
However, for a couple of years, while significantly improved the "design", left the development in operation bim.
In particular, I expected a complete integration with str and mep (among other things mep is not localized in Italian), and perhaps complete the sw with the direct integration of "accessories" that develop other sw. I do not speak of "roboanti" sw, but for example is rai and others that are present on the web.
I mean: who develops is rai per revit, could have an agreement that develops it for adesk, so that it is integrated directly into the sw (or rather) that acquires such tools for the Italian market.
Now, in the last year, the various suites, practically gifted, have implemented the "bim method", but with the obligation to use them with a single vertical license (one machine).
This situation to me is not good, as I need to use the various sw in parallel (one designs, the other inserts the plants), but with the suite I can not do it.
a sw (e.g. mep) disjoined me another 6,000 heur (+ or -), while in my opinion, being the "basic motor" similar, could make "additive modules" at lower costs, i.e. a kind of revit viewer for the achitettonic part, with the possibility to insert/modify the plant part.
However, I also watch the evolution of revit ....

 

[gilli]

the developer of the programs h a certain ing......I don't remember the name was the owner of the company mcs software had done years ago or I am an application for architecturaldesktop name archvision a beautiful addin for the automatic generation of the wooden covers....from what I heard a beautiful little man who knows what will come out of it.
I still have the idea that revit garba and a lot.
Bye.

 

[roberto 2011]

every now and then he comes roberto and... can unleash serious and committed reasonings, which can concern everyone and not the usual eternal caxxes that can be read in other discussions. . .

when in 2007 I met revit, I see that today you want to highlight the bim of which it is part, I was very fascinated and really believed I could throw autocad understood by now as old and exceeded. On the other hand if a softhouse continues to propose autocad but at the same time tells you that the future is that...

then the experience on the field has been different and, the list of lilies is very lacking:tongue: All I did was find myself with a lot of trouble.
when on a "famous" project that included a masonry building consolidated by a structure of pillars in c.a. I couldn't represent what I wanted, I said stop and I went back to pull lines with the electronic tecnigraph.

By the way, now it seems a bit blew, but "electronic tecnigraph" has allowed us, undersigned since 1987, to produce excellent complete projects of all necessary.

today the indispensable for me is autocad and word with excel. others for computations, energy consumption, construction safety, successions etc. etc. If you're ok otherwise you can always involve external colleagues. . .

I remain waiting, as long as the brain age will allow me, to be able to use a real soft, well defined by gfrank, easily usable that can manage not only the bare and raw building, but all that is necessary for a complete project, including the structural, the catasto, the accounting of the works and who more has put it. less probate complaints, of course :biggrin:

I always hope to have good tips, to understand and grow, from those colleagues who are prepared and have had better experiences than mine. :finger: