mathematicians fixed with demonstrations?

[snaroz]

hello to everyone, mine wants to be more than a personal outburst. I'm a first year mechanical engineering student. this morning I went to try the oral of linear algebra, starting from an 18 of the writing, and the result was that the prof wanted to comfermarmi as final vote 18. Of course, knowing that I could do much better, I refused the vote. the fact that I don't really go down is that these mathematicians are fixed with details and demonstrations of trivial things. I thought I had a good preparation, as I knew all the topics covered and the most important demonstrations, but then at the oral the prof asked me for demonstrations of things that, since I thought obvious, I had not studied. the juice of the speech is that I have bothered these mathematicians who are fixed with demonstrations. I do engineering, I don't do maths, and so a math teacher when questioning an engineering student must understand that he has a future engineer in front of him and that of these demonstrations he won't do anything. Do you agree? I have a very practical mind, I can frame the mathematical concepts very often from the graphic point of view, practical, but then I do not accept that I wonder these subtleties from mathematicians. I posted here because I know that this forum is attended almost exclusively by engineers, and therefore I wanted to know the opinion of someone who has a few years more than me. Thank you and excuse me for the rash.

 

[cacciatorino]

I disagree. what you think is useless notions are provided for educational purposes: that is what you try to achieve in this way is to develop the activity of analysis and synthesis in the student engineer, which is precisely what distinguishes the graduate from the graduate technician.

Bye.

 

[snaroz]

I disagree. what you think is useless notions are provided for educational purposes: that is what you try to achieve in this way is to develop the activity of analysis and synthesis in the student engineer, which is precisely what distinguishes the graduate from the graduate technician.

Bye.

Of course, and in fact I think it is important for a student to learn these things, but just to understand what reasoning is behind it; once I do this according to me then the teacher must not demand from the student that repeats these things, because so much then one if he sees them a week later.

 

[meccanicamg]

I disagree. what you think is useless notions are provided for educational purposes: that is what you try to achieve in this way is to develop the activity of analysis and synthesis in the student engineer, which is precisely what distinguishes the graduate from the graduate technician.

Bye.

also this quoted above is sound theory. Well, I'm not questioning, then let's not complain if the graduates can't do anything. When a company, a company asks you to solve a problem, it doesn't give a damn about cauchy's theorem, or that the breast theorem comes from there or other purely theoretical menades: Just need the result. the formula applied just. Who cares where it comes from?

It's like we're all workers. We should have understood that the fairy tale with the demonstration does not lead us to have given the solution to the problem. the solution is a design, a project, a strategy.

see yesterday's post in merit of the pulley 1000 mm diameter (this is professionalism, not engineering theoretical chatter). What theories can we encamp? So many. but the product must be done and resist, the rest is chatter for sitting well.

 

[snaroz]

also this quoted above is sound theory. Well, I'm not questioning, then let's not complain if the graduates can't do anything. When a company, a company asks you to solve a problem, it doesn't give a damn about cauchy's theorem, or that the breast theorem comes from there or other purely theoretical menades: Just need the result. the formula applied just. Who cares where it comes from?

It's like we're all workers. We should have understood that the fairy tale with the demonstration does not lead us to have given the solution to the problem. the solution is a design, a project, a strategy.

see yesterday's post in merit of the pulley 1000 mm diameter. What theories can we encamp? So many. but the product must be done and resist, the rest is chatter for sitting well.

100 percent. He thinks that when I took the analysis 1 exam in February, passing from 28,5 of the writing to a 25 sweat of the oral (conquered after making a lot of stories with the prof), I had to study the demonstrations of absurd theorems such as "characterization of integrability using the sums of riemann". If someone writes to me here the statement and the demonstration of the theorem I will immediately charge him via paypal:biggrin:.
I don't know, and I never studied it.

 

[cacciatorino]

also this quoted above is sound theory. Well, I'm not questioning, then let's not complain if the graduates can't do anything. When a company, a company asks you to solve a problem, it doesn't give a damn about cauchy's theorem, or that the breast theorem comes from there or other purely theoretical menades: Just need the result. the formula applied just. Who cares where it comes from?

Did you do engineering? If you did, you'll know very well that you study both theory and its practical application. That's not a two-month job.

 

[KLA#27]

Hi. You asked for an engineer's opinion... Young and fresh graduate... 4/5 years ago...

analysis 1/2/3 calculation 1/2 statistic chemistry... but I would also dare to say rational mechanics, science of mechanical construction of fluids1/2... are all subjects that require great demonstrations with a complex mathematics!! Exaggeratedly complex!! that I agree with you in the ondo of work is useless! ! !

are demonstrations that make you suffer to understand and remind her, that after 1 month of the exam you no longer remember... but it is precisely thanks to all these demonstrations that one day you can say you are a naive.

The study of these complex theories eventually serves to give you the method of analysis and resolutions of the various problems that will arise within your future professional life.

I spent the nights on the theorems of analysis 3 (meaning the various hilbert sobolev couchy....) at the end then without the so much hated functional you will not understand the intrinsic nature of the fem...

In sum you will also understand that what I as a student defined mental saws of who did not have a woman to commit time ... (please excuse vulgarity) will help you to be an engineer

 

[snaroz]

Hi. You asked for an engineer's opinion... Young and fresh graduate... 4/5 years ago...

analysis 1/2/3 calculation 1/2 statistic chemistry... but I would also dare to say rational mechanics, science of mechanical construction of fluids1/2... are all subjects that require great demonstrations with a complex mathematics!! Exaggeratedly complex!! that I agree with you in the ondo of work is useless! ! !

are demonstrations that make you suffer to understand and remind her, that after 1 month of the exam you no longer remember... but it is precisely thanks to all these demonstrations that one day you can say you are a naive.

The study of these complex theories eventually serves to give you the method of analysis and resolutions of the various problems that will arise within your future professional life.

I spent the nights on the theorems of analysis 3 (meaning the various hilbert sobolev couchy....) at the end then without the so much hated functional you will not understand the intrinsic nature of the fem...

In sum you will also understand that what I as a student defined mental saws of who did not have a woman to commit time ... (please excuse vulgarity) will help you to be an engineer

I'd like to clarify my situation. It is important that a future engineer strives to understand the demonstrations, but once this has been done, the prof should not claim that he remembers them when he is questioned at the oral, because they are useless. and then many mathematical concepts can be intuitively demonstrated from the graphic point of view, rather than by absurd reasoning, and this way of demonstrating according to me is much more effective for an engineer. to prove the boldman formula to an engineer will not serve anything. If anything, it is important to understand its meaning.

 

[cacciatorino]

I'd like to clarify my situation. It is important that a future engineer strives to understand the demonstrations, but once this has been done, the prof should not claim that he remembers them when he is questioned at the oral, because they are useless.

I'm sorry, but how does the prof know if you understand the demonstrations, if you don't ask her for the exam?

demonstrations are useless if you are satisfied to study without intimately understanding the matter. If the matter is understood, the demonstration does not need to learn it by memory, it is simply the display in graphic terms of a logical process that you have in mind. for me this was particularly evident when I gave ii analysis, among other things I was fascinated by how a coded language like the mathematical one was able to describe the world so faithfully.

 

[meccanicamg]

Did you do engineering? If you did, you'll know very well that you study both theory and its practical application. That's not a two-month job.

made and sweated. Unfortunately the application really practical I have not yet seen it transmitted by teachers to students. to get to be what I am had to climb alone with nails and teeth, otherwise I would be like most of my unprofessionally motivated colleagues (and I translated it eulcorately).

the head has to be beaten much more than the university proposes, otherwise you spend all your life doing the job of Chancellor not of Engineer and to get to a minimum of professional experience it takes 20 years when 5 would be enough to divorers to know.

 

[snaroz]

I disagree. what you think is useless notions are provided for educational purposes: that is what you try to achieve in this way is to develop the activity of analysis and synthesis in the student engineer, which is precisely what distinguishes the graduate from the graduate technician.

Bye.

Hunter, do you want to know what the real juice of the speech is? I'll tell you right away. in engineering analysis courses professors justify each statement with demonstrations, without focusing on practical or graphic issues, as for them to express a word concept is idiocy. Now, students are divided into two groups. There are those who learn everything that the prof says in lesson, and then "return it in the face" to the oral by memory, and there are those who, like me, refuse to demonstrate through absurd arguments every bullshit, and instead try to prove it, not in a rigorous way, framing the question graphically. What do you think is more? Many times I see people who know all the theorems and demonstrations, and then if you ask him why that happens or why the other one looks with a strange face. Of course, the first are what passes the exam with the highest vote, while the second are those that pass with the lowest vote. We should reform the university, and let the mathematicians teach future mathematicians, and not future engineers. I love math, but these things just don't go down.

 

[snaroz]

I remember when I went to the reception of the analyzer to ask him why, from the graphic point of view, if a point of a function is flexo, then the secondary derivative of the function at that point must be 0. I was there 3 hours trying to get him to understand my question, but he kept telling me that there was a theorem that said it. I finally figured it out myself, framing the question geometrically, rubbing me with that theorem: I was much more impressed in my mind.

or other absurd thing that I have found is that many mathematicians believe that the "dx" that appears in the definition of integral, is only an embellishment to remember what is the variable that is being integrated. absurd.

 

[flaviobrio88]

hello to everyone, mine wants to be more than a personal outburst. I'm a first year mechanical engineering student. this morning I went to try the oral of linear algebra, starting from an 18 of the writing, and the result was that the prof wanted to comfermarmi as final vote 18. Of course, knowing that I could do much better, I refused the vote. the fact that I don't really go down is that these mathematicians are fixed with details and demonstrations of trivial things. I thought I had a good preparation, as I knew all the topics covered and the most important demonstrations, but then at the oral the prof asked me for demonstrations of things that, since I thought obvious, I had not studied. the juice of the speech is that I have bothered these mathematicians who are fixed with demonstrations. I do engineering, I don't do maths, and so a math teacher when questioning an engineering student must understand that he has a future engineer in front of him and that of these demonstrations he won't do anything. Do you agree? I have a very practical mind, I can frame the mathematical concepts very often from the graphic point of view, practical, but then I do not accept that I wonder these subtleties from mathematicians. I posted here because I know that this forum is attended almost exclusively by engineers, and therefore I wanted to know the opinion of someone who has a few years more than me. Thank you and excuse me for the rash.

don't worry about the important thing and that you are aware that what you have learned goes beyond the lesson that the professor exalts as important (perhaps only because he is the only one who knows thoroughly and can discuss it) .
on the 18th you rejected him next time you will study those four caxxates he wants to hear and take your vote.


I understand you well and really frustrating when people in front of you think it's more open and perceptive... especially math

 

[snaroz]

don't worry about the important thing and that you are aware that what you have learned goes beyond the lesson that the professor exalts as important (perhaps only because he is the only one who knows thoroughly and can discuss it) .
on the 18th you rejected him next time you will study those four caxxates he wants to hear and take your vote.


I understand you well and really frustrating when people in front of you think it's more open and perceptive... especially math

Look, I hope that analysis 2 is the last math exam I'll have to do, because I really have the balls full of the tics of mathematicians.

 

[KLA#27]

made and sweated. Unfortunately the application really practical I have not yet seen it transmitted by teachers to students. to get to be what I am had to climb alone with nails and teeth, otherwise I would be like most of my unprofessionally motivated colleagues (and I translated it eulcorately).

the head has to be beaten much more than the university proposes, otherwise you spend all your life doing the job of Chancellor not of Engineer and to get to a minimum of professional experience it takes 20 years when 5 would be enough to divorers to know.

I don't really agree. because in the end the Italian industry seems to see that it does not give much space to young people... but they are always the old ones who have in hand the game with their techniques and habits from the '80s... real have experience but not confidence with new technologies... therefore we always end up trusting the "old with experience" of "we always did so" etc etc.

 

[zeigs]

I've done engineering, too, in a bologna. The five-year-old. I want to point out why many things have changed with the new order. I don't want to take anyone's parts, but as you say, he caught you on things you didn't study, like your own admission. it was your free will not study something that was assigned to you, and you paid for the consequences. [Bleep] aside from the prof.
Let us understand, I fully agree that 90% of the theoretical questions that have the claim to teach you at the university in the real world do not serve. At least, you need to know how it works, but not the demonstration of why you get to that particular formula. and it depends on what your real world is... studying the profile of the turbines is very different from dimensional supports for cranes, even from the point of view of the approach.
But I am convinced that it is knowledge to do those things is one of the fundamental differences between the engineer and the expert. I repeat that even my work is 90% composed of activities that a peritum (maybe with its good experience in hand that when leaning on the table the legs do not open because it was a peritum to draw them beautiful oversized) knows how (and perhaps better) of me.
I spit out a decent amount of blood to get to the degree because of my on several issues I am a goat, but I still think I have earned it. But to see the boy who works with me, engineer also he but more brought to the analytical question, who faces certain problems with paper and pencil and showing me with a more or less long sequence of mathematical passages if I shot an idiot or not (so an analytical approach rather than experimental) a tip of envy me procurs it. at least because for the most obvious cases it is not necessary to create a prototype and is spared in money and time.
Moreover it is to consider that if your maximum expectation is to know how to dimensional the dentate wheels (I don't want the non-engineers, I have a great respect for who made the bones in the workshop) then why studies engineering? I'm not defending mathematicians, I'm defending the analytical approach that (would) is being inculcated by doing university (and also by purely abstract subjects), and that for obvious reasons is more or less neglected in higher education. then we can discuss gaps on all fronts of our poor school system, and on that I can only raise my arms unwittingly to the sky

and in my opinion nowadays there are too many engineers. . .

 

[PierArg]

I say mine:

In my opinion, the demonstrations serve a lot in practice, just think about what is behind a fem software, or you can't have an approach in the study and analysis of vibrations without a solid theory behind (and trust that in the field of vibrations only "elected few" know the subject). the problem is that demonstrations must serve to far capire il problema that it is dealing, so know him e master it.

the problem is when professors believe that learning by heart a demonstration is synonymous with having it happen.

I, as Snaroz says (super quoton on what he wrote), I had colleagues who when I asked him:
"Why does the demonstration do that at this point? "
they answered me:
"you learn it by heart and fool it!"

according to me, and precise I'm sorry., the examination would be more constructive if the prof asked things like:"What would happen if this was not verified"Oppure:
"because these values are assigned to the constant k (generic)
and many other questions aimed at verifying the concept and essence of demonstration, rather than "poetry".

I unfortunately see it so because I am "materialist".

quote of the "memorandum of the engineer"the engineer must provide a solution, a number. If this number came to him in a dream or is the result of a series of endless studies it does not give a damn to anyone. Perhaps it is better if he comes to dream because it would be cheaper.

Finally I add that the word engineer is the one who has "ingence" not the one who asks him why the bulb emits light explains the concept of electromagnetic wave.
the engineer must make few words and many facts.

the rest is the task of mathematicians

 

[meccanicamg]

I don't really agree. because in the end the Italian industry seems to see that it does not give much space to young people... but they are always the old ones who have in hand the game with their techniques and habits from the '80s... real have experience but not confidence with new technologies... therefore we always end up trusting the "old with experience" of "we always did so" etc etc.

for this is now that we young people wake up and send home the old!! but if young people really prepared are few, it is a very difficult battle. with this there is also attached low stidendium etc... the usual issues. If we're good, let's prove it. Then they're afraid we're taking his chair away from below... well at this point we have to do it in principle. We are going to the era of change, if we move young people maybe we make it.

Let's look around... What did the adults leave us? our rulers? taxes, impossibility to expand, dobbiam run abroad, we import everything made in China... How smart are we?

 

[Tequila]

for this is now that we young people wake up and send home the old!! but if young people really prepared are few, it is a very difficult battle. with this there is also attached low stidendium etc... the usual issues. If we're good, let's prove it. Then they're afraid we're taking his chair away from below... well at this point we have to do it in principle. We are going to the era of change, if we move young people maybe we make it.

Let's look around... What did the adults leave us? our rulers? taxes, impossibility to expand, dobbiam run abroad, we import everything made in China... How smart are we?

However, you cannot make all the grass a bundle, because not all young people have the [bleep] to do certain things, not even if they are engineers or doctors and even after giving them the opportunity to demonstrate their abilities, as well as not all the old are rechanged to send home or retired.

if as it happened to read and listen to for tg a few years ago of certain graduates who did the state exam (I thought they were future lawyers) and on the writing there were sentences and abbreviations from sms, sincerely to kick in the ass I would send them to remake the elementary ones.

same thing as the young people who even here on the forum write texts as if they use the mobile phone.

 

[meccanicamg]

However, you cannot make all the grass a bundle, because not all young people have the [bleep] to do certain things, not even if they are engineers or doctors and even after giving them the opportunity to demonstrate their abilities, as well as not all the old are rechanged to send home or retired.

if as it happened to read and listen to for tg a few years ago of certain graduates who did the state exam (I thought they were future lawyers) and on the writing there were sentences and abbreviations from sms, sincerely to kick in the ass I would send them to remake the elementary ones.

same thing as the young people who even here on the forum write texts as if they use the mobile phone.

I agree, but the over 40 are everywhere and more than pipping cheerful substances and playing with fresh meat and stealing money I'm not seeing. few, too few honest ones will reduce to be no longer when the rope will tighten around the throat. We're all still too good.

companies don't want to invest. I always feel like I don't need to, if we need to call us. but to think about relaunching the company with some new product is so difficult? And yet it is known that the black man turns a lot despite all the bullshit they want. I hope I don't become an adult like them.