open activities

[Marco9669]

Good morning to all,

My friend and I are thinking about opening a mechanical workshop. the mechanical workshop would be formed by me and he would take care of creations of molds. Obviously our budget is limited, but we can afford to buy the first machine tools and the mini wagon. At the moment we are discussing and it is still an idea, but I wanted to have your opinion. ...according to you can exist nowadays have the dream of creating a mechanical workshop? this because certainly compared to once where not all of this competition today it became more difficult to notice and also find the first possible customers... we were thinking about starting to turn from company to company looking for possible partners.. What do you think is feasible?
the desire to get into play is also to be noticed. .
our real concern is to fail to find customers willing to trust us; This is our fear. What do you think?

 

[Vittorio]

Hi.
Before giving you an answer, I should know the kind of molds .
plastic molds? for die casting zama/aluminum? or anything?
What maximum dimensions of matrices will you be able to build?

 

[Stefano_GS]

the information is few, in the field of molds you have experience? in the processing industry you have experience?
in your area how is the situation both potential customers and potential customers?
the mold industry in my opinion is saturated, a bit like metalmechanics in general, what could you offer more than the current operators?

 

[Marco9669]

Hi.
Before giving you an answer, I should know the kind of molds .
plastic molds? for die casting zama/aluminum? or anything?
What maximum dimensions of matrices will you be able to build?

plastic molds.. I initially thought of starting from medium-small forms type 400x400... we can not initially equip ourselves for huge molds. .

 

[Marco9669]

the information is few, in the field of molds you have experience? in the processing industry you have experience?
in your area how is the situation both potential customers and potential customers?
the mold industry in my opinion is saturated, a bit like metalmechanics in general, what could you offer more than the current operators?

I have no experience at all and in fact I will limit myself to the commercial part, to the selection of the staff, but also to the management of the workshop. while my friend has been browsing us for 7 years as a designer cad/cam and has created himself from 0 very complex molds.
do more than the market is difficult. technology is that, but we do not offer anything less. the projects we can manage them from the beginning to the end and we can follow the changes of the customers easily being a lean company. Moreover surely not need many designers or workers because we put our hands on ourselves we can also ask less than competition.

 

[Marco9669]

in your area how is the situation both potential customers and potential customers?

we are in Veneto and there are many companies producing plastic objects and therefore many potential customers... We still have to start shooting, but someone interested should be able to find him.

 

[Vittorio]

Hi.
as he said @stefano_g the mold market is saturated.
perhaps "thanks" to covid Asian competition is less fierce and for a cost of molds under 20/30 thousand euros the wool is not so convenient.
cnc evolved 5assi, cad and cam now exist in any workshop that is involved in the construction of molds and without these it is not possible to be competitive.
that you have the desire to get your hands dirty is certainly true, but a profit there must be.
between software licensing costs, cnc maintenance, processing and difficulty in centering the estimate is very difficult to obtain the profits especially if the mold to build belongs to the category "poor product".
If one thing is easy to achieve, everyone is capable of doing it, and by the way it is an unfair competition because it is not able to do things by killing all those that the accounts can do.
If I were you, to gain confidence in your potential customers, I would start proposing myself as a tool maintenance. many foundries/printers in their interior do not have advanced equipment to repair or regenerate worn molds. then from what comes what.
This is my thought

 

[Marco9669]

tool maintenance can certainly be a start, I agree. However every market is saturated in the sense that if you want to do something you find who does it, but the problem is that companies often don't ask a little money and some projects are to break our heads and not all companies have really good designers; Not to mention that mechanical designers are less and less. from what seems to me to see myself, even in my company that we make automatic machines, is that by now no one wants to do this job because paid as an ordinary but difficult job... there are less and less people able to work and more and more people able to tell others to work! the software we use fusion 360, so we have no immense costs. ..considering that we are in 2 and we have no particular costs besides the material and management costs we make pay only our 30 euros per hour of design, so we are more than competitive from that point of view (in theory )
However, the real competition that we are sincerely afraid of is not the Chinese one, but precisely that of the companies of our home. Chinese companies win only when they are commanded by European moulders who go to China only to exploit the labor and this is convenient when talking about molds for the big global automotive giants, but you don't go to china to be designed or to fresare a medium-small technical mold because for 2000 more I know that the mold works and I also have some assistance if something happens. without counting that the mold is communicated and often there are changes in progress... in the product there are infinite technicalities and often it is best to stay here and just. At least in my opinion..

 

[PIETRO2002]

tool maintenance can certainly be a start, I agree. However every market is saturated in the sense that if you want to do something you find who does it, but the problem is that companies often don't ask a little money and some projects are to break our heads and not all companies have really good designers; Not to mention that mechanical designers are less and less. from what seems to me to see myself, even in my company that we make automatic machines, is that by now no one wants to do this job because paid as an ordinary but difficult job... there are less and less people able to work and more and more people able to tell others to work! the software we use fusion 360, so we have no immense costs. ..considering that we are in 2 and we have no particular costs besides the material and management costs we make pay only our 30 euros per hour of design, so we are more than competitive from that point of view (in theory )
However, the real competition that we are sincerely afraid of is not the Chinese one, but precisely that of the companies of our home. Chinese companies win only when they are commanded by European moulders who go to China only to exploit the labor and this is convenient when talking about molds for the big global automotive giants, but you don't go to china to be designed or to fresare a medium-small technical mold because for 2000 more I know that the mold works and I also have some assistance if something happens. without counting that the mold is communicated and often there are changes in progress... in the product there are infinite technicalities and often it is best to stay here and just. At least in my opinion..

I don't like to deal with others in my pocket, but I'm sure 30 euros / now, for a kind of work like that, it really seems "snatched". there are expenses, fixed, variable, possible inconveniences, rents to pay, depreciation machinery, energy that in this period is not little, consumables and equipment that must not be from basements, type of cutters bit.. as he said victorious if you want to be competitive you need a 5 axle machine, even a Korean won't be very expensive. the standard cam of fusion seems to me handle 2.5 axes, the module to manage 5 axes you pay aside... how much you charge a bricklayer or a plumber, with all respect for the two categories! but we must have respect for ours too!

 

[DrBarde]

I don't like to deal with others in my pocket, but I'm sure 30 euros / now, for a kind of work like that, it really seems "snatched". there are expenses, fixed, variable, possible inconveniences, rents to pay, depreciation machinery, energy that in this period is not little, consumables and equipment that must not be from basements, type of cutters bit.. as he said victorious if you want to be competitive you need a 5 axle machine, even a Korean won't be very expensive. the standard cam of fusion seems to me handle 2.5 axes, the module to manage 5 axes you pay aside... how much you charge a bricklayer or a plumber, with all respect for the two categories! but we must have respect for ours too!

fusion360 also a full license does not cost much.
about the hourly cost is definitely below average, from us the outside ask about 50 euros for the design and 35/40 the table. However, it can be a way to be seen at first.
and then it is true that designers, but also designers, mechanics are less, but I wonder if it is true this story that is an increasingly sought after role. I admit that I am not looking for being permanently hired and the company for now holds, but I would be curious to know if such research is still so "important".

 

[MassiVonWeizen]

I personally see many critical issues in this project:
the initial costs according to me are not under 200,000€ between: cnc, wagon, equipment, software. then there will be the costs of activity: rent sheds (if not bought and included in the initial costs), accountant, electricity, water, consumer products, which will be on a few thousand euros per month.
other critical roles are: commercial, personnel selector is not invented from today to tomorrow, it takes experience to confront people both that you have to discuss the project of the customer both that you have to understand from an interview who you are going to hire.
to work on a machine needs experience that is not only to do the program, but also to be able to place the piece in the machine to optimize the working time without having to turn it 2 times more than necessary; If it is one person how many hours can you produce a day? 10 maybe 12 if you take intermediate breaks and make huge sacrifices, but beyond you can't go. and if you have to go to the dentist you lose 50% production?
the commercial, which will also have to know the technical part in order not to risk taking a job that will not be able to do, must also go to the various customers both to promote their own business, and to discuss the projects therefore there will be costs of transfer and non-presence in the company that will have to be covered by the other partner (who makes production) or by an employee who will have to be paid.
to all this should be added the mental pressure that you undergo from the various creditors, first bank, of the customers who give you the work for yesterday, of the state authorities (inail, inps, agency of the revenues, etc.. ) that the first months will undoubtedly be heavy with stress repercussions not indifferent.
between the other to 30€ per hour perhaps we work the manual milling, figure out a 5 axes control that will be on the 80/100€

I think you should do a small simulation of the right activity to understand what you are going to embark on.
go to the chamber of commerce and let you give all the information about the activity you would like to open
make a quote of all the necessary physical material
make a estimate of the monthly average management costs in your area
talk to some bank to see funding
with tables and hand data you start to count on how much you should earn a month to go on equal.

 

[Marco9669]

I think you should do a small simulation of the right activity to understand what you are going to embark on.
go to the chamber of commerce and let you give all the information about the activity you would like to open
make a quote of all the necessary physical material
make a estimate of the monthly average management costs in your area
talk to some bank to see funding
with tables and hand data you start to count on how much you should earn a month to go on equal.

I agree.
Anyway, 200k seems a lot to me. we wanted to start with little and collect little and then expand with time. the management costs and the rest definitely impattano, but I think that initially we limit ourselves to the design entrusting the production to external workshops; then with time and with increasingly customers we will buy the first machines. we have a budget of 70k to invest in transport costs (to look for customers) and for software.. initially we will only design then with time we will expand.

about the hourly cost is definitely below average, from us the outside ask about 50 euros for the design and 35/40 the table. However, it can be a way to be seen at first.

30-35 euro design we thought we did.

 

[MassiVonWeizen]

but I think we initially limit ourselves to the design by entrusting production to external workshops;

at first you wrote something else

. of course our budget is limited, but we can afford to buy the first machine tools and the mini wagon

how can we give you advice if your information is not correct?

30-35 euro design we thought we did.

have you considered the cost of the third party?

 

[Mario SJPD]

initially we will only design then with time we will expand.

much easier to start with third-party processing and then get into the industry and start proposing own products,certain is also more challenging at economic level.

at first you wrote something else

few ideas but surely confused

30-35 euro design we thought we did.

at these prices you will find a lot of companies with jobs in delivery for yesterday no programming a lot of work changes and payments who knows if and when ,if you do not give value to your job as you can expect your customers to do it.
and however well that you are not in there make a simulation with a good accountant, 200 hours /months per head - 11 months a year and some lack of payment ,pay us the costs, the taxes and, according to me remains little.
Let's not talk about whether or not you contest a job already produced by charging you the costs, what strength do you have to assert your reasons? You must have studied contracts with a legal expert in the field, what strength do you have to defend yourself in a possible judgment? legal expenses... how can we pay off the damage? insurance. My dear is a minefield frequented by brigands.

 

[TECNOMODEL]

I have no experience at all and in fact I will limit myself to the commercial part, to the selection of the staff, but also to the management of the workshop. while my friend has been browsing us for 7 years as a designer cad/cam and has created himself from 0 very complex molds.
do more than the market is difficult. technology is that, but we do not offer anything less. the projects we can manage them from the beginning to the end and we can follow the changes of the customers easily being a lean company. Moreover surely not need many designers or workers because we put our hands on ourselves we can also ask less than competition.

a probable criticality could be that of the skills of your "socio", 7 years of experience in that sector are not great, moreover talk of designer cad/cam, but what does it really do?
is able to design the particular power system, the cooling system, evaluate deformations, signs of resurface, joint lines etc? because this is the important part for an injection mold designer, in addition to evaluating the mold productivity, according to the demands, the right press, etc., etc., etc., etc.
regarding the building part you have? a valid fixer is rare and sought after in Italy, and is the fundamental figure able to assemble and make the mold really working. Plus you need a miller, a turning machine, a rectifier.
needs a dive electro-erosion, and a person capable of using it.
I recommend that you put an accurate businness plan, if you have no idea how to get help from someone who is really competent, because it is the first fundamental step to understand whether your idea is feasible or not, otherwise you risk getting hurt very much.
In my opinion, the 70k you mention is not enough.

 

[stevie]

but do you want to open a workshop mechanical mold processing or a study of mold design?

 

[Vittorio]

of course our budget is limited, but we can afford to buy the first machine tools

you started with this phrase, now reading your following posts I realized that your budget is 70 thousand €.
Oh, my God. with a lot of hat for all the optimism you have, but it seems to me an insufficient figure also to buy a frieze and a third-hand lathe leaving all the tools to complete them.
If you tell me that for now you only want to do technical office, bhe may have to work because it doesn't even need a shed and 70 thousand can be enough.
If you think you're only planning cad is fine, but if you think you're going to cam for other workshops, forget it.
every external workshop has its own needs, has its tools, has its own strategies and if they serve ways on the tool path you need to be fast in fixing them in a nano second because cncs cost 100/150€ now .
the world moulds is complex both for geometric shapes and for the difficulties of processing.
your partner with 7 years of experience should know.. unless you have 7 years experience building box molds entering the wall.
as already mentioned by @tecnomodel , they serve expensive machines and as pointed out by him is imperative the qualified staff.

 

[TECNOMODEL]

you started with this phrase, now reading your following posts I realized that your budget is 70 thousand €.
Oh, my God. with a lot of hat for all the optimism you have, but it seems to me an insufficient figure also to buy a frieze and a third-hand lathe leaving all the tools to complete them.
If you tell me that for now you only want to do technical office, bhe may have to work because it doesn't even need a shed and 70 thousand can be enough.
If you think you're only planning cad is fine, but if you think you're going to cam for other workshops, forget it.
every external workshop has its own needs, has its tools, has its own strategies and if they serve ways on the tool path you need to be fast in fixing them in a nano second because cncs cost 100/150€ now .
the world moulds is complex both for geometric shapes and for the difficulties of processing.
your partner with 7 years of experience should know.. unless you have 7 years experience building box molds entering the wall.
as already mentioned by @tecnomodel , they serve expensive machines and as pointed out by him is imperative the qualified staff.

I believe that wanting to put on a technical office only to design molds is a lost bet on departure, who builds molds already has a technical office inside, which is the true added value of the company, I do not see why they should outsource the most important part of the job, with all the risks that follow it.
how much to do the cam, but what company outsources such a thing? Perhaps, and I say perhaps, only that makes productions in series, with lots of thousands of pieces, could assess the thing.

 

[Vittorio]

on the cam for sure.
outside design can be because not all small medium workshops can afford a technical office. there are still reality where the 3d model of the mold is made externally and they only limit themselves to the cam part

 

[TECNOMODEL]

on the cam for sure.
outside design can be because not all small medium workshops can afford a technical office. there are still reality where the 3d model of the mold is made externally and they only limit themselves to the cam part

for my experience are very few, and they still make "poor" products.
the design, in an injection mold, makes the difference between a product that works and makes and another that does not, and companies aim to keep this know-how within their own.