ral

[MarcelloArz]

Good morning.
the other day I had a job offer with specified the reference heral. I wanted to ask you: is the gross pay I have in a right year? but are you aware of overtime or do you mean without overtime?
in the sense that the indicative heral that you put in the job offers is meant with 40 hours per week or with the maximum of 48 hours per week?
my doubt is: if the heral is x a year, but I do extraordinary then they pay me x+y, right or do they always pay me x?
thanks and cordial greetings.

 

[meccanicamg]

if it is called extraordinary can not be identified a priori....then the ral is reported to the regular working time provided by the national contract (part-time or full time).

 

[TiZeta]

I add that the extraordinary discourse depends on the type of contract and the expected framework, keep in mind that in the metalmechanical sector from the level b2 (ex 6th level) the extraordinary are of practice included in the pay (forfait is said, in coins do not pay you) except of course several specific agreements. in the heral you will not even find any production prizes, one-time gratings and so on.

 

[biz]

do you know where to find reliable statistical data (source type istat) regarding the average pay of a designer engineer? because on the net, apart from the usual sites (type indeed), there is nothing official.

 

[MassiVonWeizen]

do you know where to find reliable statistical data (source type istat) regarding the average pay of a designer engineer? because on the net, apart from the usual sites (type indeed), there is nothing official.

a survey on this subject was opened just yesterday.

[SONDAGGIO 2022] Stipendio medio ufficio tecnico

Buongiorno a tutti!! Mi chiamo Daniele, 28 anni, come tanti di voi mi ritrovo a lavorare in ufficio tecnico, ultimamente il mercato del lavoro è in forte fermento e con molte posizioni aperte, vorrei proporvi questo sondaggio per capire e giovarne tutti sia in fase di richiesta di aumento o di...

www.cad3d.it

as I wrote in the other middle salary discussion does not mean anything unless it is circumscribed to a specific situation.
Engineer is the one with 40 years of experience such as the graduate one, what makes bimby robots like the one that coordinates the construction of a nuclear power plant, what does not move from his office and barely knows Italian as what makes you travel around the world and knows 5 languages. Are we average equating all these figures?

 

[biz]

Mechanical engineer designer. I omitted mechanical because rather implicit. I mean a job from ut.

 

[MassiVonWeizen]

Don't you just see what the ccnl says?

 

[biz]

no, because you only indicate the minimum wage, not the average.

 

[Stan9411]

as I wrote in the other middle salary discussion does not mean anything unless it is circumscribed to a specific situation.
Engineer is the one with 40 years of experience such as the graduate one, what makes bimby robots like the one that coordinates the construction of a nuclear power plant, what does not move from his office and barely knows Italian as what makes you travel around the world and knows 5 languages. Are we average equating all these figures?

well the concept of media exists precisely to give a reference indication that you do not discriminate against the specific skills and tasks. and clear that we must start from the assumption (I believe true) that those who plan nuclear power stations are a very small minority... as well as those who do not know Italian ... I hope.

apart from this utterance by saputel, I would say that every statistical speech on wages is pure fried air ... any number came out, what conclusions would allow us to draw? That we were better off doing tiktokers?
to know that to be 50€ above or below the average does not have the slightest utility.
if you think you are underpaid, ask for an increase or change company.
If you think you're paid more than well... well then you're not the guys who participate in these conversations

 

[MarcelloArz]

do you know where to find reliable statistical data (source type istat) regarding the average pay of a designer engineer? because on the net, apart from the usual sites (type indeed), there is nothing official.

There is no reliable site that says how much you deserve salary based on what you can do. This is a lack to solve also because in fact one thing is to be employed technical that uses 5 cad and 5 cam and another thing is to be one that uses one and also badly. in fact I preferred to go to the commercial because I was tired of seeing demands of work with the same ral but with perhaps requests impossible to reach... in the ccnl there is no table that imposes for example a minimum wage limit for designer cad, a minimum as designer cam and a minimum for a designer cad-cam and there is not even a minimum salary based on skills; there is only the minimum as "technical employee" which allows companies to be able to hire a designer cad, cam or cad-cam with the same salary.
This is also a lack of the system because the unions should reach a compromise with the companies in order to be able to give minimums also according to the skills. . because it is really shameful to read certain offers where it seems normal to know at least 3 design software and 2 cam... I understand that the offers write to you the unavoidable resources that do not understand anything, but this goes against the investment that the person does to be able to learn to use these software. There should be minimums on the basis of risks:
- ask for software then x
- ask for 2 software then x+y
And so on.
if not within a few under requirements you may have as well: "preferably former President of the Council"
ahhahahahahahahah jokes, but a truth fund is there.
It does not make sense to ask that salary should be in use on the basis of its own capacity because it is the same for all because from ccnl there is no difference between requirements and competences but only a difference of work: worker, employee, management, manager. in a few words that you are an employee who makes bubbles or an employee who designs industrial machinery for ccnl does not change anything. What actually changes is how much you are indispensable to the company and so how much you can leverage on this to increase your salary.. It can be for example that you can use 10 huge calculation software but that maybe in the company where you work they just need to do autocad and then they could replace you tomorrow because they find another behind the door (in this case you can not ask for the increase). While it may be the opposite case that you might be able to use only 1 weird software that doesn't use anyone and therefore you're not replaceable and you can leverage the contract. so there was also a site that says the salary would be quite wrong to make us so much reference for this concept... I know for example in the company where I work a worker who knows how to use all the machines of the company. one day asked for the increase and from the top of his office came the sign. management ingegner (never seen an asshole more than him) who came from the ccnl worker and said to them: "It's not my fault, you see? in the ccnl these are the salaries! if not you should become picture!" the awake worker said to him, "I don't miss anything about this ccnl. I want the increase. If you give it to me, if not, I only work four hours in the morning." took the ccnl and tear it in front of him. Well, now he takes more than the paintings.
said this on average a technical employee takes 30k ral with a tenth of years of experience. . .while 40k ral if we talk about leaders of course irreplaceable people then they are irreplaceable people and they definitely take much more.

 

[volaff]

then there are companies where the donkey takes 40k ral and you still have to understand why

 

[TECNOMODEL]

There is no reliable site that says how much you deserve salary based on what you can do. This is a lack to solve also because in fact one thing is to be employed technical that uses 5 cad and 5 cam and another thing is to be one that uses one and also badly. in fact I preferred to go to the commercial because I was tired of seeing demands of work with the same ral but with perhaps requests impossible to reach... in the ccnl there is no table that imposes for example a minimum wage limit for designer cad, a minimum as designer cam and a minimum for a designer cad-cam and there is not even a minimum salary based on skills; there is only the minimum as "technical employee" which allows companies to be able to hire a designer cad, cam or cad-cam with the same salary.
This is also a lack of the system because the unions should reach a compromise with the companies in order to be able to give minimums also according to the skills. . because it is really shameful to read certain offers where it seems normal to know at least 3 design software and 2 cam... I understand that the offers write to you the unavoidable resources that do not understand anything, but this goes against the investment that the person does to be able to learn to use these software. There should be minimums on the basis of risks:
- ask for software then x
- ask for 2 software then x+y
And so on.
if not within a few under requirements you may have as well: "preferably former President of the Council"
ahhahahahahahahah jokes, but a truth fund is there.
It does not make sense to ask that salary should be in use on the basis of its own capacity because it is the same for all because from ccnl there is no difference between requirements and competences but only a difference of work: worker, employee, management, manager. in a few words that you are an employee who makes bubbles or an employee who designs industrial machinery for ccnl does not change anything. What actually changes is how much you are indispensable to the company and so how much you can leverage on this to increase your salary.. It can be for example that you can use 10 huge calculation software but that maybe in the company where you work they just need to do autocad and then they could replace you tomorrow because they find another behind the door (in this case you can not ask for the increase). While it may be the opposite case that you might be able to use only 1 weird software that doesn't use anyone and therefore you're not replaceable and you can leverage the contract. so there was also a site that says the salary would be quite wrong to make us so much reference for this concept... I know for example in the company where I work a worker who knows how to use all the machines of the company. one day asked for the increase and from the top of his office came the sign. management ingegner (never seen an asshole more than him) who came from the ccnl worker and said to them: "It's not my fault, you see? in the ccnl these are the salaries! if not you should become picture!" the awake worker said to him, "I don't miss anything about this ccnl. I want the increase. If you give it to me, if not, I only work four hours in the morning." took the ccnl and tear it in front of him. Well, now he takes more than the paintings.
said this on average a technical employee takes 30k ral with a tenth of years of experience. . .while 40k ral if we talk about leaders of course irreplaceable people then they are irreplaceable people and they definitely take much more.

all the speech on the lack of difference between the various skills does not make sense, all ccnl present the levels of framing, in which each figure (worker, employee, framework, manager) are divided into a number of levels (depending on the ccnl) precisely according to the work they carry out.
For example, the worker who stands on a machine, changes the piece and is limited to that will have a 2nd/3° level, the worker that that machine the square, the program and controls the production will have a 5th level or even higher.
Of course it is a maximum subdivision, given the great variety of works that can be carried out within the various companies even under the same ccnl.
what would be to change in contracts is the minimum table, very low generally in Italy. There is, therefore, a large number of pay differences between those who are at low levels, therefore easily replaceable, and those who have high levels of competence and can better treat their pay.

 

[Marco9669]

What you're wrong is logic. I know that there is the 3rd level and that there is the 5th but I also know that in one we talk about 1200 euros and in the other of 1300 nets per month. what I was trying to explain is that there should be a subdivision based on actual skills because if one knows autocad it is true that he knows a cad, but it is different than another who knows him also only a cad but maybe it is catia. In a fair world, you should reward those who do the deck to learn complicated software by losing us at night and weekends. while with the levels as said one that makes bubbles is equal to one that uses caia, powermill, autocad and sap.

 

[MassiVonWeizen]

what I was trying to explain

I see 2 possibilities:
- you deleted your previous message you're referring to
-write in the forum with two identities.
Which one?

 

[cacciatorino]

What you're wrong is logic. I know that there is the 3rd level and that there is the 5th but I also know that in one we talk about 1200 euros and in the other of 1300 nets per month. what I was trying to explain is that there should be a subdivision based on actual skills because if one knows autocad it is true that he knows a cad, but it is different than another who knows him also only a cad but maybe it is catia. In a fair world, you should reward those who do the deck to learn complicated software by losing us at night and weekends. while with the levels as said one that makes bubbles is equal to one that uses caia, powermill, autocad and sap.

Knowing how to use a software I think is 5% of the skills needed to work.

 

[MassiVonWeizen]

for the rest of your message:
what you define is called meritocracy and should reward what is brought to the company.
according to your way of seeing me that I don't spend my nights studying, but learning by doing practice and trying, I should take less than a colleague studying books, he knows so much theory but he can't put it into practice.
the levels say that one who makes bubbles (any what it means) is not planning while one who uses catia si, so the first is framed in a level below the second.
the levels define tasks and responsibilities, which for obvious reasons are generalistic, otherwise there would be no more than 1000 levels. and define as regards the role internally to the company and not what one does outside it that falls into private life and personal choices; if you want to spend the nights in white to solve the problems of the yard in Venezuela or study commercial strategy even if you make the lather are your choices that, possibly, must be discussed with the company asking for a recognition; cannot be managed nationally by a collective contract which should also define an objective system of meritocracy.

 

[PIETRO2002]

then there are companies where the donkey takes 40k ral and you still have to understand why

Maybe he's a fox-dressed donkey! :

 

[TECNOMODEL]

What you're wrong is logic. I know that there is the 3rd level and that there is the 5th but I also know that in one we talk about 1200 euros and in the other of 1300 nets per month. what I was trying to explain is that there should be a subdivision based on actual skills because if one knows autocad it is true that he knows a cad, but it is different than another who knows him also only a cad but maybe it is catia. In a fair world, you should reward those who do the deck to learn complicated software by losing us at night and weekends. while with the levels as said one that makes bubbles is equal to one that uses caia, powermill, autocad and sap.

make an example of how you would write the national contract to overcome these problems.
but keep in mind the many types of companies that fall into that specific contract, their work, the tasks that carry out the employees of each of these companies.
You'll see that it's impossible to put up something like you think.
for the management of wages you enter the field of personal negotiation, taking as the basis the ccnl.
then I who have years of experience, a good field of transversal skills, an ability to autonomy and to make decisions I will have more strength in negotiation than a new engineer who knows very well the theory but has no idea how to realize a piece.
about the software speech is a marginal aspect, if a designer/designer knows the philosophy behind a cad it will take little time to learn how to use a software other than what he already used.

 

[stevie]

Knowing how to use a software I think is 5% of the skills needed to work.

for the rest of your message:
what you define is called meritocracy and should reward what is brought to the company.
according to your way of seeing me that I don't spend my nights studying, but learning by doing practice and trying, I should take less than a colleague studying books, he knows so much theory but he can't put it into practice.
the levels say that one who makes bubbles (any what it means) is not planning while one who uses catia si, so the first is framed in a level below the second.
the levels define tasks and responsibilities, which for obvious reasons are generalistic, otherwise there would be no more than 1000 levels. and define as regards the role internally to the company and not what one does outside it that falls into private life and personal choices; if you want to spend the nights in white to solve the problems of the yard in Venezuela or study commercial strategy even if you make the lather are your choices that, possibly, must be discussed with the company asking for a recognition; cannot be managed nationally by a collective contract which should also define an objective system of meritocracy.

That's right... we're at the point... meritocracy.
that in Italy it has deliberately passed on in the second floor if not canceled, implementing a policy of commodification of the worker, equated in substance to a commodity or better to a generic worker.
all with the tacit and conscious blessing of various unions and associations, which have always seen with suspicion a healthy and natural economic reward of skills, and have pushed towards the wage cages dictated by the famous "livelli". ..as if the aunity always goes hand in hand with the skills and the desire to do.

 

[biz]

about the software speech is a marginal aspect, if a designer/designer knows the philosophy behind a cad it will take little time to learn how to use a software other than what he already used.

That's right. the skills that an engineer has (obviously this applies to any job) go well beyond knowing how to use a tool.