Er Presidente
Guest
Even today, with all the furnace, we retire to 53 years, with the greatest of the years of age.
DANI-3D
Guest
no, no, indeed, often the opposite is true, the most active people sometimes need new stimuli.
by vagabonds I mean the characters who in the morning get up with the desire to waste time and maybe involve other colleagues. a classic are sports comments. on Monday and Tuesday we talk about the games just played, on Wednesday a short break. on Thursday and Friday there are trainings for the next matches.
PierArg
Guest
Hello number1,
In my opinion, there would be a lot to talk about, but we risk going.
as I think the truth lies in the middle.
I think everything depends on size and how a company is structured.
If you are a 10 employee company it is very difficult to "make" the wanderer because you would be identified immediately.
In large companies (multinationals of thousands of employees) it is equally difficult because the jobs are so sectoral that they will immediately release you.
to the maximum you can find what you exploit and covers you with glory on your shoulders, this you.
but in the medium-sized enterprises I can assure you that there is a fancazziness/inefficient/vagabondagine rampant.
to do something you would normally do in 10 minutes you also get to put on 2 hours.
in this type of companies it is difficult to identify the "culpable" because for a person who runs at 50% there is always another that goes at 150%.
this can be due both to a bad management of the division of labor and, above all, to a sort of "inertia" (of the type: I've always been like this for 30 years, and no one has ever told me anything! ).
then these guys are the first to complain about the displacement of factories in cina, india, romania, polonia, etc.
already from the fiscal point of view and the costs we are out market... if we add also the inefficiencies we can close shack and puppets.
Finally I feel like I quote dani-3d on the speech of training. Maybe it's just those!
I personally saw people who compiled the schedina and made bets on the matches.
not to say "assemble" to decide on which teams to bet on.
and on Wednesday what a break!
DANI-3D
Guest
Hi pierarg,
Your intervention does not bend. I add only a comment, an experience that I lived in first person.
I worked in a big company, which was part of a multinational, apparently super-organized where everything was codified, every activity was regulated by fierce working cycles. sin that the director of establishment for not having problems with the workers, see strikes etc., agreed the main working times with the factory council. It is useless to say that at the end of the 1990s, at the first crisis, we went immediately out of the market, and labor struggles began, not to increase productivity, but to get social shocks.
Your intervention does not bend. I add only a comment, an experience that I lived in first person.
I worked in a big company, which was part of a multinational, apparently super-organized where everything was codified, every activity was regulated by fierce working cycles. sin that the director of establishment for not having problems with the workers, see strikes etc., agreed the main working times with the factory council. It is useless to say that at the end of the 1990s, at the first crisis, we went immediately out of the market, and labor struggles began, not to increase productivity, but to get social shocks.
numero1
Guest
Oh I confirm the story of the games, but I don't care about anything............ I mean football.
However, allow me to doubt that these people are the same as the "heavy struggles" you mentioned earlier.
I have had very different experiences about it, it is from here that my conception of "work ethics" or professional ethics, if you prefer.
Hi.
numero1
Guest
Yes, we risk going, indeed maybe we've already gone......... But I have to contradict you on what you wrote, because I have had different experiences, obviously.
- media company almost absent
- small business 50% of the case, or you're a boss with the oo or the hired son-in-law, the guy you're sympathetic to and go-go fanciful to
I have to make a distinction (and I'm sorry) between Italian and foreign multinationals, and you've already figured out where the fancazzis above are:cool.
for foreign multinationals I also mean the Italian branches of the same, where this phenomenon is almost unknown.
Hi.
DANI-3D
Guest
no, once the topic of the day was not only the fantacalcist, but the business situation, they were in the front row to the assemblies, the entrance gates and the parades.
PierArg
Guest
Well, it's obvious that a lot counts from personal experiences:finger:
I saw people (a large group) going to the staff manager to complain about a colleague who worked too much and, to them say, put them in bad light.
when I said: "I'm sorry, instead of complaining about why you don't take it as a kind of healthy competition and try to do the same in my life, in any situation, I've always taken things from this point of view."
I never said that.
I was answered:"and why should we do that? we are paid to make n, with the caxxo we do n+1! do you want us to enrich the master on our shoulders!?"
in that sentence of a few words is the portrait of the current Italian worker.
(Note: it is obvious that there are exceptions, but there are few. see the worker running at 150%)
in other countries things work because work is faced with another mentality.
PierArg
Guest
people without ambitions who think everything is due to him.
people of an impressive cultural backwardness.
people who still see the entrepreneur as their master.
people who do not understand the meaning of common good (intensive as corporate good).
people who do not make a caxxo for the continuous improvement of their company because, in his opinion, it is the problem of the master.
These people here, you didn't realize that if the company closes, the first ones to get it in the... they are!
people of an impressive cultural backwardness.
people who still see the entrepreneur as their master.
people who do not understand the meaning of common good (intensive as corporate good).
people who do not make a caxxo for the continuous improvement of their company because, in his opinion, it is the problem of the master.
These people here, you didn't realize that if the company closes, the first ones to get it in the... they are!
PierArg
Guest
of course not to support the cause but only and exclusively for pure spirit of contestation end to itself.
note: here I always refer to the majority. It's obvious that there's also serious people who fool because they really believe it.
numero1
Guest
exactly, then whether or not the majority depends on case to case and company to company.
Hi.
numero1
Guest
all right and all beautiful what you say pier....... But, there's one but, if I work at 150 % and I can guarantee that I do, I don't give judgments and I don't even want to be judged.
or if someone went to my boss to complain about me working "too" to me would turn the low spheres, I would never allow me to go to my boss and say a phrase like:
"Titty works only 8 hours a day."
I find it extremely incorrect, if guy signed a contract in which he says he takes x for 8 hours :mixed: It is correct that you do only and only his 8 hours, point.
rightly you can ask him for extraordinary in cases of crisis, imminent deliveries, problems with sick personnel (influence) etc.
but, if contracts still apply to something in Italy, always 8 hours basic is written; or so it is worth everyone to do for themselves.
the problem that arises against me, is that I turn low spheres for 2 other reasons:
1) if I do 10-12 hours a day (e.g.) I should be paid for 10-12 hours, is it logical?
2) but above all I shouldn't become the shifter, otherwise rightly I send to v.......the whole job and I go out at 5:30, who makes me do it?
This second situation has already happened (not here) but I have to be careful to plant my stakes and keep them still, otherwise after they come out situations that I would not want them to go out.
Hi.
PierArg
Guest
I agree with what you say but your speech is different from mine.
I refer to "efficiency/return". Let's leave the economic speech alone otherwise we go off the road.
Suppose that the designer at an hour manages to make 10 designs while the designer b manages to make 11.
as the worker manages to make 10 pieces while the b, in the same time interval, makes 11.
We also assume that the standard that expects the "master" is 10 designs and 10 pieces in 8 hours.
so it is not in "deficit" compared to b, it is simply b more "efficient" (perhaps because he does not like football:tongue: joke)
theoretically even to could do 11 but prefers to do 10 because it uses time to make the formations of the fantacalcio.
then, when he needs it, he stays 30 minutes extra to make extraordinary and arrive at 11.
I repeat, this depends on your own experiences.
I refer to "efficiency/return". Let's leave the economic speech alone otherwise we go off the road.
Suppose that the designer at an hour manages to make 10 designs while the designer b manages to make 11.
as the worker manages to make 10 pieces while the b, in the same time interval, makes 11.
We also assume that the standard that expects the "master" is 10 designs and 10 pieces in 8 hours.
so it is not in "deficit" compared to b, it is simply b more "efficient" (perhaps because he does not like football:tongue: joke)
theoretically even to could do 11 but prefers to do 10 because it uses time to make the formations of the fantacalcio.
then, when he needs it, he stays 30 minutes extra to make extraordinary and arrive at 11.
I repeat, this depends on your own experiences.
numero1
Guest
theoretically perfect speech, but practically wrong............ and this independently that a or b are 2 excellent people, or 2 fans, or one and one.
So if in an hour to make 10 designs and b' 11 the standard that the "master" is expected is 11.
and this descends from the 50s/55s, see for example the xxxxxx (I could make it the name but let it stand), is/was a company of the north-east.
in it applied the tactile, then when you went to the modernization (assembly line) the "master" took the number pieces of the best, that is of those (4/5 people) who earned more.
and such number became the standard for all, the attic disappeared and all the workers were screwed who in one sense and who in the other.
or who was back on the attic had to adapt with consequences on his health and alienation, and who instead worked attic because he wanted to do it, he had to always produce the same number of pieces while taking now less (and they turned the low spheres).
logic is + or not the same.........
Hi.
So if in an hour to make 10 designs and b' 11 the standard that the "master" is expected is 11.
and this descends from the 50s/55s, see for example the xxxxxx (I could make it the name but let it stand), is/was a company of the north-east.
in it applied the tactile, then when you went to the modernization (assembly line) the "master" took the number pieces of the best, that is of those (4/5 people) who earned more.
and such number became the standard for all, the attic disappeared and all the workers were screwed who in one sense and who in the other.
or who was back on the attic had to adapt with consequences on his health and alienation, and who instead worked attic because he wanted to do it, he had to always produce the same number of pieces while taking now less (and they turned the low spheres).
logic is + or not the same.........
Hi.
haga78
Guest
but one of the problems of most Italian companies is the absence of meritocracy and a well-rooted misguided mentality, which in other countries is not there (I have several colleagues working in American societies of oil&gas).
who produces more must have more.
there are workers who would go to 150%, then when they see that all their efforts are in vain "they scale the march".
in so many companies overtime do not pay, the boss also counts the minutes you get up to go to the bathroom, if you ring your personal cell phone other look at you, trouble using the internet (sporadiously) for non-institutional reasons, trouble talking to colleagues if not for reasons of work and for the time strictly necessary... and I could continue.
to me for example when I was always with the suitcase between my feet (gratis) and once I tried to complain about the fact that I made the postal package one week yes and the other too, immediately they told me many nice words of comfort ("I know about you, you have to decide whether to make the employee of the 17 or the engineer who takes responsibility..."). a pity that some time later when I asked for a transference allowance, they replied "eh, the employee does not take away" :
how to switch from being the engineer responsible to the last wheel of the carriage in a nanosecond to changing interests.
PierArg
Guest
haga and number1,
I repeat that the speech I want to do is a matter of "mentality". we leave the economic speech because then we fall into other areas such as exploitation and underpaid employees.
I refer to the fact that if a person manages to do n+1 in the time interval "t" it is right to do +1 instead of making the training of the fantacalcio to pass the time.
then depends on the management assess whether the company is able to do the "improvement" and produce n+1 as standard.
all without wanting to force the company reality.
and then all the good speeches of the tqm? continuous improvement? Kaizen?
a kaizen extract is this (from wiki)
"Kaizen as an approach to quality management systems connects with concepts such as lean manufacturing (slim production), total quality management (tqm - total quality management), just in time (jit - stock reduction), kanban (a method for constant reintegration of raw materials and semi-finished products), redesign of business processes, statistical process control (process control).kaizen as a behavioral strategy refers to a practice directed at the constant improvement of manufacturing, engineering and business management processes .
the vision of the kaizen strategy is that of renewal at small steps, to be done day after day, with continuity, in radical contrast with concepts such as innovation, revolution and conflict of exquisitely Western matrix. the basis of renewal is to encourage every person to make small changes every day whose overall effect becomes a process of selection and improvement of the entire organization. "
I think we have to start from this if we want to be competitive....now with the costs we are definitely out.
we just have to reduce waste and improve efficiency.
I repeat again, everything depends on my personal opinion.
I had a chance to see a lot of people complain when they really should kiss their elbows.
And then I saw people working like mules watching them came to me the mental complexes.
I repeat that the speech I want to do is a matter of "mentality". we leave the economic speech because then we fall into other areas such as exploitation and underpaid employees.
I refer to the fact that if a person manages to do n+1 in the time interval "t" it is right to do +1 instead of making the training of the fantacalcio to pass the time.
then depends on the management assess whether the company is able to do the "improvement" and produce n+1 as standard.
all without wanting to force the company reality.
and then all the good speeches of the tqm? continuous improvement? Kaizen?
a kaizen extract is this (from wiki)
"Kaizen as an approach to quality management systems connects with concepts such as lean manufacturing (slim production), total quality management (tqm - total quality management), just in time (jit - stock reduction), kanban (a method for constant reintegration of raw materials and semi-finished products), redesign of business processes, statistical process control (process control).kaizen as a behavioral strategy refers to a practice directed at the constant improvement of manufacturing, engineering and business management processes .
the vision of the kaizen strategy is that of renewal at small steps, to be done day after day, with continuity, in radical contrast with concepts such as innovation, revolution and conflict of exquisitely Western matrix. the basis of renewal is to encourage every person to make small changes every day whose overall effect becomes a process of selection and improvement of the entire organization. "
I think we have to start from this if we want to be competitive....now with the costs we are definitely out.
we just have to reduce waste and improve efficiency.
I repeat again, everything depends on my personal opinion.
I had a chance to see a lot of people complain when they really should kiss their elbows.
And then I saw people working like mules watching them came to me the mental complexes.
Er Presidente
Guest
a small "resolved" problem is when you remove the cause that generated it.
If you solve a small problem means that you have removed at least one "case" which in turn would generate another 3.
If you solve a small problem a day prevent the emergence of another 3, in a year solve 300 small problems and prevent the emergence of another 900.
all small problems that, though, all together, would create a great and unresolvable chaos.
If you solve a small problem means that you have removed at least one "case" which in turn would generate another 3.
If you solve a small problem a day prevent the emergence of another 3, in a year solve 300 small problems and prevent the emergence of another 900.
all small problems that, though, all together, would create a great and unresolvable chaos.
numero1
Guest
quoton......... :finger:
ah how many times I happened to see or suffer this situation/i, now I put better the stakes I mentioned before.
Hi.
numero1
Guest
You can't leave the economic speech aside, they go hand in hand.
I repeat, you have already forced it, if you can do 11 instead of 10 you forced the company reality and that is/will be the standard that is for everyone, at least officially.
Of course, in no case, either to make 10 or 11, you don't have to play fantacalcio.
all right, and it would also be easy to do if:
1) there were fewer fans
2) there were real industrial captains in Italy, we had very few.
personally in my wandering I got to enter a company that needed to normalize its products, or a series of them.
I mentioned it here. http://www.cad3d.it/forum1/showthread.php?23744-gestione-elenchi-disegni-inviati-a-fornitoripost number 6.
but also in other 3ads if I remember well, however once they did the whole they noticed the improvements, that is they did the things better, with less time, and with the relative advantages.
but in the meantime I had gone away, now I am back in the reeds because no one kept + updated everything.
you used my own words: alcohol:
Hi.
numero1
Guest
:wink:
"If things finally seem to go right, there's something you're not taking into account"
from: http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/legge_di_murphy