my working situation.

[MauroTC]

I have read with interest the evolution of the discussion, with the various topics covered, of the “security” company, Italy or abroad, etc...

I was also taken by doubt whether it was better to stay in Italy or leave abroad; I'd probably have better left. and say that I have not been treated badly, turning work at work (small, medium and large companies, 5 in almost 30 years), always earning discreetly over the average; but probably outside Italy I would have got even more, both in economic terms and especially in terms of satisfaction.
we say that in the last decade, or little more, there has been a certain involution in the employer relationship – employee (fall crisis?) and after the maximum reached about a couple of decades back in terms of rights (also with certain excesses, there is to be admitted) now it seems to me that you take advantage of the crisis and uncertainty of the workplace, with demands / expectations that go more and more to exploit the worker and the workers.

so much to make practical examples, in which never before had I come across, at least not so evident:
My last experience is in a multinational.
a curious paradox lives in this great company: you prefer those who produce less in more hours, to those who produce more and better in less time!
I happened to follow for some time the production of our small (in our headquarters) technical office; soon I have transposed the various levels of components, very varied: we went to who produced 2, who 4, who 5 and who 10. Among other things, who produced 10 also had an excellent quality level, I can say the highest compared to others. What do you want more in a company? I know that it is a very rare combination in the present world of mechanical design; unfortunately his “pecca” is not to protract in working hours, as is required here; without understanding (???) that anyone else would not be enough to reach what he produces, in terms of quantity or quality. Yet it does not take as much as it is worth and according to the corporate parameters it does not have prizes for the little “flexibility” and occasionally receives “threats” of the type that is most at risk in case of crisis.
Well, the company deserves to fill in mediocres that prefer them, that you do not know well what they produce, but they are sitting in their place for 9 or 10 hours...

then as said, you know that any employer appreciates.../requests? .../pretentious? that you work more than the agreed (for free). But I never had the obsessive to prefer a little to a good one anyway.

given the bitterness and little confidence in a similar environment you look around and talking to the former colleague discover that he, in addition to protracting in working hours, finds occasionally in envelope pays hours of leave (also a whole day) decurved, but in reality not enjoyed.
And so on...

as to say there is no limit to the worst.

 

[Lord Kelvin]

I have read with interest the evolution of the discussion, with the various topics covered, of the “security” company, Italy or abroad, etc...

I was also taken by doubt whether it was better to stay in Italy or leave abroad; I'd probably have better left. and say that I have not been treated badly, turning work at work (small, medium and large companies, 5 in almost 30 years), always earning discreetly over the average; but probably outside Italy I would have got even more, both in economic terms and especially in terms of satisfaction.
we say that in the last decade, or little more, there has been a certain involution in the employer relationship – employee (fall crisis?) and after the maximum reached about a couple of decades back in terms of rights (also with certain excesses, there is to be admitted) now it seems to me that you take advantage of the crisis and uncertainty of the workplace, with demands / expectations that go more and more to exploit the worker and the workers.

so much to make practical examples, in which never before had I come across, at least not so evident:
My last experience is in a multinational.
a curious paradox lives in this great company: you prefer those who produce less in more hours, to those who produce more and better in less time!
I happened to follow for some time the production of our small (in our headquarters) technical office; soon I have transposed the various levels of components, very varied: we went to who produced 2, who 4, who 5 and who 10. Among other things, who produced 10 also had an excellent quality level, I can say the highest compared to others. What do you want more in a company? I know that it is a very rare combination in the present world of mechanical design; unfortunately his “pecca” is not to protract in working hours, as is required here; without understanding (???) that anyone else would not be enough to reach what he produces, in terms of quantity or quality. Yet it does not take as much as it is worth and according to the corporate parameters it does not have prizes for the little “flexibility” and occasionally receives “threats” of the type that is most at risk in case of crisis.
Well, the company deserves to fill in mediocres that prefer them, that you do not know well what they produce, but they are sitting in their place for 9 or 10 hours...

then as said, you know that any employer appreciates.../requests? .../pretentious? that you work more than the agreed (for free). But I never had the obsessive to prefer a little to a good one anyway.

given the bitterness and little confidence in a similar environment you look around and talking to the former colleague discover that he, in addition to protracting in working hours, finds occasionally in envelope pays hours of leave (also a whole day) decurved, but in reality not enjoyed.
And so on...

as to say there is no limit to the worst.

Do you think the situation is so serious at the employer/worker level?

I thought I'd go back to Italy but I wouldn't like to be "obligated" to work 2 more hours a day fixed (I don't talk about periods of obvious need) aggratis and give up seeing my wife and my children for example. or to suffer these ferie games allowed etc... I heard of one who had died a relative and did not give him 2 hours of permission for the funeral.

I don't understand. Does anyone help me understand the real situation?

and if you can kindly give me some practical advice to avoid these situations or limit them? Please:
like I know how to discuss it when negotiating the contract after having passed an interview?
or that I can try to get in with a little more responsibility, like project manager instead of designer (not because designer is less than pm, but I mean maybe he's more respected by the employer at his point of view? ? )
etc. etc.

Thank you very much, I really have a slight fear because of these things...

:

 

[320i S]

depends on the employer, I will take back my experience: in a big company "semi-padronale" (padronale but with partner a big group), ask for holidays was like to ask the moon, at least a week in advance, in the same group but in another place, there were no problems, it was enough to agree with the manager; where I am now (average/big company of a multinational group), I have almost absolute time flexibility, I have dates of delivery projects, I can manage as best I think, but I have no overtime paid (compensated with other, but I now value my 17 years of experience in multiple tasks within the ut, not only as a designer).

 

[Meteor02]

I can tell you that I am in a small plastic molding company and I have a great relationship with the owners, demanding people and puzzles p. but I don't miss anything and have never refused a permit or holiday even requested at last time, on the other hand I do not break, I am not asking every day hardware or software novo ne increases, and I go home when I finished the job not when I finished the 8 hours. surprise with the new year gave me an unsolicited increase. sometimes in small realities there is still hidden humanity... the satisfaction of seeing me increase the salary without having requested it was the best way to feel appreciated.

 

[PierArg]

I confirm what was said by meteor.
the company where I work is bigger but the situation is similar.

On the contrary, it is full of lavatory colleagues who every day fill their mouth with the word "right" forgetting the "dovers".

 

[Lord Kelvin]

depends on the employer, I will take back my experience: in a big company "semi-padronale" (padronale but with partner a big group), ask for holidays was like to ask the moon, at least a week in advance, in the same group but in another place, there were no problems, it was enough to agree with the manager; where I am now (average/big company of a multinational group), I have almost absolute time flexibility, I have dates of delivery projects, I can manage as best I think, but I have no overtime paid (compensated with other, but I now value my 17 years of experience in multiple tasks within the ut, not only as a designer).

I can tell you that I am in a small plastic molding company and I have a great relationship with the owners, demanding people and puzzles p. but I don't miss anything and have never refused a permit or holiday even requested at last time, on the other hand I do not break, I am not asking every day hardware or software novo ne increases, and I go home when I finished the job not when I finished the 8 hours. surprise with the new year gave me an unsolicited increase. sometimes in small realities there is still hidden humanity... the satisfaction of seeing me increase the salary without having requested it was the best way to feel appreciated.

I confirm what was said by meteor.
the company where I work is bigger but the situation is similar.

On the contrary, it is full of lavatory colleagues who every day fill their mouth with the word "right" forgetting the "dovers".

from how you say it doesn't seem so bad to work in Italy, maybe in the Venetian/emilia-Roman and similar "training" regions as an employee. I mean also abroad there are employers and employers..
Of course, then here usually if the contract says 8 hours you usually do 8 hours and not 10 with 2 aggratis. or you have more chance that you become undetermined after 1/2 years (or even 6 months, which is enough for the test).

if I wanted to bring back my experience I would say that with my 1600s but with 1400 between bills and rent if you did not have 2 salaries you did not arrive at the end of the month.
in Italy if you take 1200 you probably get there (bilocal in province 550 bills 150, rest for food etc.).
I would also like an opinion on this point as we often discuss how "missive" are Italian wages.

thanks to all

 

[Lord Kelvin]

other curiosity... to your senses which frame or contract is very likely to offer?

 

[Sergio_V]

in Italy if you take 120
0 probably you arrive (two-room apartment in province 550 bills 150, rest for food etc.).
I would also like an opinion on this point as we often discuss how "missive" are Italian wages.

depends on the "italia" you refer to. ..a well-known company (filiale di una mutlinazionali stranieri)..sita in lombardia so much pays...and I assure you that living in some areas with 1200 euros per month for those who do not have relatives/ownership on the spot..it is not simple...a friend of mine went openly declaring to the employer: "if this is the salary the regions directly do the contact of the owner... . .

 

[320i S]

other curiosity... to your senses which frame or contract is very likely to offer?

As far as I am concerned, there is no unique answer, it depends a lot on the area and the period, in 3 years that "I was" on the market and I evaluated offers, I was offered a bit of everything, even more figures from junior designer (it does not need to explain how I reacted, even remaining in the educated...).
I have also rejected good economic proposals, because they involved negative factors that, knowing me, I would not have accepted in the long term and I preferred not to change rather than to change and after a short time to put me back in search.

 

[Lord Kelvin]

As far as I am concerned, there is no unique answer, it depends a lot on the area and the period, in 3 years that "I was" on the market and I evaluated offers, I was offered a bit of everything, even more figures from junior designer (it does not need to explain how I reacted, even remaining in the educated...).
I have also rejected good economic proposals, because they involved negative factors that, knowing me, I would not have accepted in the long term and I preferred not to change rather than to change and after a short time to put me back in search.

Okay, I've been meaning to go. I mean, you're 25 years of experience of offering 1000 euros.
I mean, the sad thing is, I think they know it's not professional, but they're prorpio from classic Italian neh? As when there was a girlfriend girl and the Italian male says, "I'll try to chemmefrega," I think we're mentally mentally well inside the firms.
There's really no ethical and moral thickness.

cmq, returning to us, finding the company "serious" what would be an average frame according to you?

 

[Lord Kelvin]

depends on the "italia" you refer to. ..a well-known company (filiale di una mutlinazionali stranieri)..sita in lombardia so much pays...and I assure you that living in some areas with 1200 euros per month for those who do not have relatives/ownership on the spot..it is not simple...a friend of mine went openly declaring to the employer: "if this is the salary the regions directly do the contact of the owner... . .

I understand what you say, but it's like saying you want to live at notting hill and then you say, "eh well, I have to earn £3,000 a month."
what I meant - also to the north - is that a 2 rooms (of which a "small", single for example) and kitchen (inhabitable, where TV and dining table enters in short) according to me to 500/550 is located. I'm talking about province, that's in town or small town.

Am I wrong? ?

then for the bills I'm 100% sure that I was riding with 150 on average on the annual arc (internet, gas, light, water) speech apart from the condomio that varies a lot and sometimes includes some things or not, but as order of magnitude we are there, I think.

so we are on 700 per house (total), 400 for eating and supermarket in general (going where it suits, buying wholesale with solidarity groups etc), 100 for transport.
We're at 1200.

Of course, get out of the bone, but get out.

 

[320i S]

You must also refer to the area where you go, you will soon double the minimum expenses in certain places.

here from me, an apartment less than 450€ difficult that you find it, unless it is a garage, condominium expenses you soon do to exceed 50€ basic, light water and gas then depends on consumption, difficult to make a priori reasoning.

 

[New Rider]

I understand what you say, but it's like saying you want to live at notting hill and then you say, "eh well, I have to earn £3,000 a month."
what I meant - also to the north - is that a 2 rooms (of which a "small", single for example) and kitchen (inhabitable, where TV and dining table enters in short) according to me to 500/550 is located. I'm talking about province, that's in town or small town.

Am I wrong? ?

then for the bills I'm 100% sure that I was riding with 150 on average on the annual arc (internet, gas, light, water) speech apart from the condomio that varies a lot and sometimes includes some things or not, but as order of magnitude we are there, I think.

so we are on 700 per house (total), 400 for eating and supermarket in general (going where it suits, buying wholesale with solidarity groups etc), 100 for transport.
We're at 1200.

Of course, get out of the bone, but get out.

except unforeseen. you break the clutch of the car, you have to pay the stamp, you have to pay the insurance, the dentist,... every month there is always something unexpected.

 

[Lord Kelvin]

except unforeseen. you break the clutch of the car, you have to pay the stamp, you have to pay the insurance, the dentist,... every month there is always something unexpected.

as in every other place.

Anyway, my point is,

I am well here and therefore I was asking, taking inspiration from the reflections that came out during the discussion. . .
provided that each zone/dator is different.. .

I just know that here in the province after home and bills I have 200 in sleepy currency. These 200 would be, in theory, to eat, transport, etc. plus all those things that you mention... so no with a salary only you don't get to the end of the month.
in "italia" of the north (with north birth from Tuscany and Emilia Romagna, not only Milan), with 1200 maybe you...maybe you go to a two-room apartment away from the center, or in the village and try to do the shopping for the food with type 300 euros for example (2 people), small car with low insurance and low consumption.. .

What I mean is this: often abroad or unleashed and do the king or it's not all gold that glitters and often you have to work in 2 to arrive at the end of the month.

I understand that in Italy expectations have been created through grandparents who have made the kul after the war to reconstruct the "well-being" and have spent this competitive advantage to parents who have not been cried but have indeed incrememntato this "well-being" recalling how their parents have suffered and "wanting to leave something to their children" (this was also my mentality). now we arrive, that first we have perhaps a little "cullati" (not all, we do not begin with attacks, I repeat not all) and then surprise comes the crisis and many did not have the appropriate minds form (the hunger of the grandparents and the desire of the parents to say briefly) to resize as expectations/tenore of life/ecc.

as an old man said to my country: "eh you young people, crisis or not, bring the chick out, the aperitif, football on Sunday and facebook never fail" (translated by the dialect seasoned with some invocation I censored :wink

 

[New Rider]

as in every other place.

Anyway, my point is,

I am well here and therefore I was asking, taking inspiration from the reflections that came out during the discussion. . .
provided that each zone/dator is different.. .

I just know that here in the province after home and bills I have 200 in sleepy currency. These 200 would be, in theory, to eat, transport, etc. plus all those things that you mention... so no with a salary only you don't get to the end of the month.
in "italia" of the north (with north birth from Tuscany and Emilia Romagna, not only Milan), with 1200 maybe you...maybe you go to a two-room apartment away from the center, or in the village and try to do the shopping for the food with type 300 euros for example (2 people), small car with low insurance and low consumption.. .

What I mean is this: often abroad or unleashed and do the king or it's not all gold that glitters and often you have to work in 2 to arrive at the end of the month.

I understand that in Italy expectations have been created through grandparents who have made the kul after the war to reconstruct the "well-being" and have spent this competitive advantage to parents who have not been cried but have indeed incrememntato this "well-being" recalling how their parents have suffered and "wanting to leave something to their children" (this was also my mentality). now we arrive, that first we have perhaps a little "cullati" (not all, we do not begin with attacks, I repeat not all) and then surprise comes the crisis and many did not have the appropriate minds form (the hunger of the grandparents and the desire of the parents to say briefly) to resize as expectations/tenore of life/ecc.

as an old man said to my country: "eh you young people, crisis or not, bring the chick out, the aperitif, football on Sunday and facebook never fail" (translated by the dialect seasoned with some invocation I censored :wink

I got some offers from abroad.
if in the first place there was a meeting in pay envelope (higher pay envelope) from the other there was the cost of the highest life.
At the end of the day, it didn't have to move, leaving my current situation, because you were the same figure.
In my opinion what differentiates Italy from abroad (at least for what I could see) is that here in Italy you do not have services for the community, if not paid, (health, school, transport etc.) while elsewhere such services are much more optimal and to measure of man/port.
so take into account that if you stay here or abroad 200€ per month, here you spend them for example from the dentist, elsewhere maybe this service is covered by the state policy. but at the end always 200€ remain. Sure on one side you can spend them differently than dental care. but at the end always 200€ remain.
also the working mode is different definitely. but all always related to the area where you work.
I do not think that this is the case.
Unification of countries.

 

[Lord Kelvin]

I got some offers from abroad.
if in the first place there was a meeting in pay envelope (higher pay envelope) from the other there was the cost of the highest life.
At the end of the day, it didn't have to move, leaving my current situation, because you were the same figure.
In my opinion what differentiates Italy from abroad (at least for what I could see) is that here in Italy you do not have services for the community, if not paid, (health, school, transport etc.) while elsewhere such services are much more optimal and to measure of man/port.
so take into account that if you stay here or abroad 200€ per month, here you spend them for example from the dentist, elsewhere maybe this service is covered by the state policy. but at the end always 200€ remain. Sure on one side you can spend them differently than dental care. but at the end always 200€ remain.
also the working mode is different definitely. but all always related to the area where you work.
I do not think that this is the case.
Unification of countries.

I agree with you and indeed quite happy that you could observe this "fresh" of the highest wages but the cost of the higher life to the point that as said you seem to have more chance in Italy to arrive at the end of the month than here.

only in fact, to me would remain 200 in money for everything else beyond home and bills, in Italian house and bills we mean 750 euros? so I have 400/500 so more.

 

[PierArg]

for me the difference between Italy and abroad is that abroad you have more opportunity to professionally realize yourself.

always as Lord kelvin says, I do not see an economic convenience and all the people I know living abroad do not lead a life of nababbis. In fact, a couple of my relatives returned from Australia with broken bones. one instead settled well...but because he married the daughter of an entrepreneur and now manages the company of the father-in-law (now retired).

without making differences of 200€ more or less, the substantial difference, for me, is that at the same amount of money you put aside you have a clearly better quality of life.

 

[New Rider]

I agree with you and indeed quite happy that you could observe this "fresh" of the highest wages but the cost of the higher life to the point that as said you seem to have more chance in Italy to arrive at the end of the month than here.

only in fact, to me would remain 200 in money for everything else beyond home and bills, in Italian house and bills we mean 750 euros? so I have 400/500 so more.

In my opinion in Italy (at least in my region) more than having a chance you have the ability to move professionally.riesci then, bad that go, always find a good or bad job. as well as some extra-work collaboration. You're lucky to play in the house. When you're abroad, you're still a stranger to them. except the fact of not working at the various cities where breed varieties are normal. So let's go back to the speech of the dear life of the various cities etc...

 

[Lettore espatriato]

...
if I wanted to bring back my experience I would say that with my 1600s but with 1400 between bills and rent if you did not have 2 salaries you did not arrive at the end of the month.
...

Bye.

Do you really take £600 a month for an engineering job? here?

If we do not want to make any comparisons about the type of work, but a full-time waiter takes ,guarantors, 7,5 pounds per hour and, since the tax is shaving 0, comes at 1100-1200 per month, net. with a contract in order, even if at zero hours.

I really can't believe that you can't find anything more than 24-25 k a year here.

1400 between bills and rent, it seems more feasible, but it also depends where and what you found. inside the m25 and the stax, I don't think you're even getting a contract card for that figure. in yorkshire, take a house.

 

[Lord Kelvin]

Bye.

Do you really take £600 a month for an engineering job? here?

If we do not want to make any comparisons about the type of work, but a full-time waiter takes ,guarantors, 7,5 pounds per hour and, since the tax is shaving 0, comes at 1100-1200 per month, net. with a contract in order, even if at zero hours.

I really can't believe that you can't find anything more than 24-25 k a year here.

1400 between bills and rent, it seems more feasible, but it also depends where and what you found. inside the m25 and the stax, I don't think you're even getting a contract card for that figure. in yorkshire, take a house.

Now, without counting in people's pockets. the house obviously in a radius of 30min from work otherwise that breast has right?

1600 are equivalent on 13 monthly. because what it means is ok I take those 100 extra and then they pay me only 12 months when in Italy people are used to having the 13th monthly. I mean in Italy if you say 1200 a month suttintendono that at Christmas you get double (almost) right?
look with 4 years experience see on the max offers you can get to 30k that would be on the 200 more per month but as the job is magnificent I do not move for 200, which then if we spread on 13 monthly to look for an Italian equivalent we are on the 180.

I hope it's clearer now.

p.s. also some in the hotels of the north that make reception + prepare breakfasts or some waiters take 1200/1500 depends where we want to say that a waiter takes more than an engineer in Italy?
or a carpenter takes twice as much as an engineer.
no more enrichment, jobs - I repeat - or outbursts in certain sectors (finance) or wages are there 300 more 300 less